It's About Time: Beach Boys Poll Results

lol, I can just see somebody dividing them into sections first

Prediction time: Where in the top 10 is Santa's Got an Airplane going to place?

a convincing argument that any of the Beach Boys' 67-70 tracks even approaches Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations in artistic quality.

well, what barometers are we going by here? the complexity of the arrangements? the emotional impact of the lyrics? the catchiness of the melodies? These are all fairly subjective in one way or another (for what it's worth I definitely think something like 'Til I Die or Our Prayer is in the same league compositionally as the earlier "peak" material, for example)

xp

artistic quality

haha

8.5

and find engaging in hypotheticals about abstractions like the "zeitgeist" largely pointless in terms of evaluating a piece of music's formal qualities

if you want to talk formal qualities then go ahead. I think that it's pretty obvious that Add Some Music is not anywhere near as sophisticated, melodically, harmonically, or in terms of its arrangement as Good Vibrations.

There's an argument for Surf's Up/Til I Die as being on par with Pet Sounds but obviously Surf's Up is a Smile retread (and to be pedantic, 'Til I Die was in 1971). Our Prayer and Cabinessence, which I assume will be top 10, also came from the Smile sessions. I love Wild Honey but it and other enjoyable post-Smile music like Cotton Fields, I Can Hear Music, Darlin, Add Some Music, Friends, Breakaway, Do It Again and This Whole World are working on a lower level.

you said they "stopped writing great songs". This was the comment I disputed. I, and apparently others here, think "Add Some Music to Your Day" is a great song. Granted, "Good Vibrations" is better. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

Although for what it's worth, bearing in mind that complexity is NOT the only or even most important barometer of "artistic quality", if you wanna talk compositional complexity, the chords for these two songs are as follows. Judge for yourself which is more "complicated".

Add Some Music To Your Day:
Intro: |D Dsus4| X2
(Verse)
D Dsus4 D Dsus4 D Dsus4
G D
Cadd9 D
Cadd9 D

G A7Sus4 D Dsus4

(chorus)
D5
G D
Cadd9 D
Cadd9 D
G A7Sus4 D
(bridge)
Bm F#m
B7
Em
F#7 B7 E7 A

Dmaj7 Amaj7

Dmaj7 Amaj7
Bm A E7 Asus4
(repeat verse)
(coda)
D5

Good Vibrations

(verse 1)
Dm C
Bb A7
Dm C
Bb A7 C7

Chorus 1:

F Cm7 F Cm7
F Cm7 F Cm7
F Cm7 F Cm7
F Cm7 F Cm7

G C/G G7 C/G G C/G G7 C/G
A D/A A7 D/A A D/A A7 D/A

(repeat verse)

(repeat chorus)

Break:
A D/A A7 D/A
A D/A A7 D/A (x3)
A D/A A7 D/A
A D/A A7 D/A
D G/D D7 G/D
D G/D D7 G/D (A)
A D/A A7 D/A A
D/A A7 D/A

Bridge 1 (Slower Tempo):

E, F#m B7
E F#m B7
E F#m B7
E F#m B7 E F#m B7
E D/E

Chorus 3

A D/A A7 D/A A D/A A7 D/A
G C/G G7 C/G G C/G G7 C/G, F Bb/F F7 Bb/F

Breakdown:

F G
A G

Coda:

G C/G, G7 C/G

Geir would probably argue that the prevalence of major 7th, additional 9ths, and suspended 4th chords in Add Some Music Make it "more complex" (although from a strictly musical standpoint he would be wrong). Certainly the chords in Good Vibrations are physically "easier" to play.

I'm not sure why you're putting "complicated" in quotes since I never used that word.

"stopped writing great songs" was an exaggeration of sorts, but I think it's true within the context of massive pop hits, and the discussion we were having about why their audience abandoned them. I'm saying that the audience didn't abandon them because they changed bandwagons too many times or they were too uncool but that they simply weren't writing massive pop hits anymore. Which you seem to have finally conceded by saying "Granted, "Good Vibrations" is better."

One could argue that the vocal melodies, production and arrangements are what elevate GV to it's status - the chord changes are just the foundation. Also, the vocal melody on ICHM is pretty static and same-y by comparison.

I'm saying that the audience didn't abandon them because they changed bandwagons too many times or they were too uncool but that they simply weren't writing massive pop hits anymore

how is writing a massive pop hit separable from the interest/perceptions of the audience wtf dude

I don't think anyone here would agree that writing a song with an involved chord progression is necessarily more complex than conceiving and creating a track like Good Vibrations, so I'm having trouble figuring out the point of spelling out the two tracks' chord progressions.

I think that it's pretty obvious that Add Some Music is not anywhere near as sophisticated, melodically, harmonically, or in terms of its arrangement as Good Vibrations.

this is what I was responding to. I think this is "debatable" not "pretty obvious"

how is writing a massive pop hit separable from the interest/perceptions of the audience wtf dude

I suppose that depends on whether you think pop hits are just arbitrary lists of stuff that people happen to like at a given moment, or if there are objectively observable qualities that lead to some songs being more popular than others.

I'm having trouble figuring out the point of spelling out the two tracks' chord progressions.

I think it's because I said GV was more sophisticated harmonically. but of course there's more to that than simply the chord changes.

I suppose that depends on whether you think pop hits are just arbitrary lists of stuff that people happen to like at a given moment, or if there are objectively observable qualities that lead to some songs being more popular than others.

yeah it's the former

so much for formal analysis then. I don't know how you could honestly claim to be interested in formal analysis of pop music and come to that conclusion.

there are of course fluke hits, and great overlooked shoulda-been-hits, but I think there are also clearly observable patterns.

eh the charts have always been total bullshit imho

I mean things become hits for so many different reasons, a huge number of which have absolutely nothing to do with a piece's formal qualities

iatee, rescue us!

so how do you know that audiences abandoned the Beach Boys then? maybe they didn't.
xp

the charts are just a barometer of what people like, they don't tell you anything about WHY people like them. but you can tell they were abandoned by their audience (at least in the US) because they sold less records.

so are the charts an accurate barometer of what people like or are they total bullshit?

they're both!

yeah although their singles got weirder & less immediate their albums could have sold much better if the rock crowd had embraced them since that was an album buying demo. the singles & albums still sold well in the UK which could come down to better taste but also probably because they didn't seem so "square" in that context.

they're both!

I don't think you can have it both ways

it's like this - the charts reflect what people like. people like things for all kinds of reasons, many of which are bullshit and have nothing to do with a piece of music's formal qualities.

like abe lincoln said, people are stupid some of the time, but they can't be stupid all of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0SnpN_O00

^^should been a hit

should *have* durr. i am clearly not one of the smart girls.

I think if we assume that the charts accurately reflect what people like, and then notice that the Beach Boys didn't have a #1 hit between Good Vibrations and Kokomo, it's fair to say that audiences abandoned them for some reason. And it's certainly conceivable that audiences would abandon an artist for non-musical reasons (they're suddenly unhip, etc).

But I think with the benefit of hindsight, we can look back at the context in which a particular single was released and make some reasonable observations as to what type of thing was popular in that moment. And from there I think we can make some relatively educated guesses as to why another song may not have measured up. These aren't absolute formal judgements of quality but are relative to the song's original context. And making that kind of analysis isn't any more of a pointless hypothetical abstraction about the zeitgeist than saying "they were suddenly uncool."

sorry guys was busy

#12

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/Beach_Boys_-_Caroline_No.jpg

Caroline, No - Pet Sounds
302 points, 16 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH3IoZ9Y_5w

very odd sleeve there!

very odd (very beautiful) single! did that come out pre or post-Pet Sounds?

love the original speed version, maybe even more than the released version.

It is a beautiful song & it would be even more beautiful without the sax fart about a minute in.

I still voted for it.

Pre-Pet Sounds, and supposedly Capitol cited it's relative failure as a reason to not release the album.

this wouldve been my #1 was wondering how high itd place all week

Yay! My vote for "Summer Means New Love" at least slipped in on the B-side.... (I voted for Caroline, No too, of course - probably my alltime fave album closer.

Didn't know "Caroline, No" was recorded at a different speed - actually, the lower pitch is as noticeable as the speed change. I guess Brian liked the dog barks as they were since I don't hear that portion in the clip.

What was the story behind it being released as a Brian Wilson single instead of the Beach Boys? That couldn't have helped sales, I don't think.

Re: chart success - the nice thing about music that's been around awhile is that time has a way of sorting out the good stuff from the dreck, eventually overriding initial chart placement as a measure of cultural or artistic relevance. A glance at the US pop charts of the mid- to late '60s shows that The Buckinghams, The New Vaudeville Band, John Fred, and Jeannie C. Riley all had #1 hit singles, but how many people are fans of any of them today? Have you even heard of the last two? Conversely, almost nobody bought any records by the Velvet Underground, Big Star, Nick Drake, or the Stooges when they made them, but they all have large followings today with many bands citing them as influences.

supposedly Capitol cited it's relative failure as a reason to not release the album
why would a record label release a solo single as a barometer for how a new album by one of their biggest acts would do? not saying it's not true, just that it doesn't make a lot of sense?

Geir would probably argue that the prevalence of major 7th, additional 9ths, and suspended 4th chords in Add Some Music Make it "more complex" (although from a strictly musical standpoint he would be wrong)

explain?

last one today

#11

http://brianwilsonmusic.tk/xsearch.php?t=R-1603561-1290560139.jpeg

In My Room - Surfer Girl
338 points, 13 votes, two #1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l71pbhqnvNM

i remember being kind of spooked by this song as a 5-6 year old. something scary about it.

Re: chart success - the nice thing about music that's been around awhile is that time has a way of sorting out the good stuff from the dreck, eventually overriding initial chart placement as a measure of cultural or artistic relevance. A glance at the US pop charts of the mid- to late '60s shows that The Buckinghams, The New Vaudeville Band, John Fred, and Jeannie C. Riley all had #1 hit singles, but how many people are fans of any of them today? Have you even heard of the last two? Conversely, almost nobody bought any records by the Velvet Underground, Big Star, Nick Drake, or the Stooges when they made them, but they all have large followings today with many bands citing them as influences.

I think those are two entirely different things. There are fluke one hit wonders for sure. There are also of course overlooked geniuses who don't get the success they deserve until years after the fact. But the Beach Boys clearly don't fall into either category, so it doesn't make sense to pretend like they didn't get a fair shot or something.

Hey guys, for the record Good Vibrations is a better song than Add Some Music To Your Day.