the thirty years war

iirc the thirty years war was also the last major european war to be fought with mercenaries and your mixed hired goons instead of standing national armies

xpost - I don't think they (bayonets) had been invented by the end of the 30 Years War.

One other great thing about the 30 Years War was that it was itself kind of part of the 90 Years War between the United Provinces and Spain.

xps to myself

although it is of course possible to characterise European history as essentially French up until 1814(?), then German from then onwards (to the present day?).

Where's a rolling historiography thread when you need one?

holy roman empire germanic

Psycho-somatic addict insane

william guthrie wrote two volumes about the battles of this war that go a long way clearing up some of the military confusion, giving background on who, what and why. they are really expensive, luckily my library has both volumes.

recommended

NDV OTM

I don't think they (bayonets) had been invented by the end of the 30 Years War

I mean that having pikemen protecting musketeers from cavalry charges was phased out when infantry units could defend themselves by fixing bayonets and, yes, it definitely postdates the Thirty Years War.

Magdeburgization

Famous mezzotinter, Ruprecht Pfalzgraf bei Rhein, Herzog von Bayern, Duke of Cumberland.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-HE1lR1mlb8/SsrdsCkos7I/AAAAAAAABFg/-T7mzvFeDk4/s320/3818049701_57e2da7f71_o.jpg

here is a thing that has long perplexed me about the 30 Years War - why did those big unwieldy Tercio formations the Spanish liked ever seem like a good idea?

Didn't Philip K Dick pick up a 30 Years' War fixation at some point? Why was he into it?

although it is of course possible to characterise European history as essentially French up until 1814(?), then German from then onwards (to the present day?).

That doesn't sound right to me - feel like most of the action is Spain + Hapsburgs in the 15th-16th century.

I am really intrigued by the idea of a PKD 30 Years War novel.

Has anyone read the not-PKD book about a load of West Virginian coal miners who are transported back in time to the 30 Year War (with all their blue collar trade union leftism and modern fire arms)? 1639 or something I think it is called. It is maybe a bit of a roffle, but I haven't read it myself.

those big unwieldy Tercio formations

Because they worked until the advent of better musketry and artillery, they were a better combo of pikes (and swords) and muskets against cavalry, especially, than any other formation. The linear formations that Gustavus Adolphus used and later 18th century military doctrine preferred gave a better rate of fire (as successive lines of men rolled past each other shooting and loading) nonetheless adopted the bayonet as a form of pike and the square was used up until the 19th century, famously at Waterloo.

That doesn't sound right to me - feel like most of the action is Spain + Hapsburgs in the 15th-16th century.

― you don't exist in the database (woof), den 17 augusti 2011 18:00 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, didn't really turn french until the 17th century really, mostly thanks to the thirty years war.

Tercios - I am thinking not just the pike squares, which seem quite handy, but those odd formations that look like little miniature man made castles with little turrets on the corners. They seem so unwieldy that it's hard to imagine them doing anything but sit there.

I also find it fascinating that it took Gustavus Adolphus to turn cavalry back into shock troops (rather than the somewhat rubbish pistoleers they had been up to then).

Tercios are also non-linear and supposedly self-contained; you can swarm around them and ride around them and they'll kill more of you than you of them regardless of their liaison with other tercios.

but surely he is in the book? I only know about the 30 years war from reading it, and I have heard of this guy.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, August 17, 2011 11:33 AM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes--axel o. is a huge player, which is why its odd he's not on wikipedia's like (i guess because he wasn't technically a commander of any armies?)

wedgwood, btw, specifically casts the 30YW as the end of spain as a "great power" (and more broadly as the beginning of the end of hapsburg domination) and the rise of france/the bourbons

yes, didn't really turn french until the 17th century really, mostly thanks to the thirty years war.

French from Pippin until Spanish Empire, really, then French again from the 1650's until 1815 at least. Look at the American uniforms from the Civil War; kepis and epaulettes and whatnot.

she also warns against thinking of european politics in national terms in the era(s) leading up to the 30 years war, preferring instead to talk dynastically i.e., its not france and spain but bourbon and hapsburg

right, that's how i've understood it - spent many happy hours in a-level history with Lockyer's Hapsburg and Bourbon Europe

its not france and spain but bourbon and hapsburg

Considering that most of their subjects didn't speak French and Spanish and their realms were distinctly divisible (hence the indivisible mantra of republicanism), this makes good sense. It's slightly less salient in the British tradition since the monarchy ended up uniting the various kingdoms and territories of the Brit.., er, western Isles.

The Hapsburg architectural influence in Madrid and Toledo was really odd to me.

(Btw, Otto just died)

looked around, Transmigration of Timothy Archer has the stuff I'm thinking of in it - 30 Years War -> Wallenstein -> Schiller.

otm about Madrid - startled me to arrive for the first time and see that I was in a Hapsburg city.

What the fcuk do you need a steep slate roof for in a city where snow isn't really an issue?

Poem re the wonderful word 'Defenestration': 'In a Word' - R.P. Lister

have to go for ol' gustav II adolph

MIAC represent!

In fact, arguably the whole German question, which has overshadowed European history up until 1945/ 1992/ to date can be traced back to the 30 Years' War.

Not sure I really buy this, entirely. Obv, the Low Countries veer away from the German speaking world and France was never really German speaking at the popular level and sure, the HRE was muti-national and -lingual but since the time of Otto the Great there has been some inkling of an idea of a Germany.

yeah, should have qualified that French/ German division as being post-1648 (i.e. "modern")

wedgwood is a big GIIA fan, not unreservedly so but hes clearly the most impressive to her

and xxp fair enough, but it does seem to me that the 30yrs War crystallised this feeling a great deal, could be wrong tho...

re. Otto von Habsburg, did you hear the KFR about how somebody once asked him about how the Austria Hungary football match was going to go, and he replied absentmindedly "who are we playing?"

With all that dynastic v. national stuff, I am always struck by how England became a "modern" country long before everywhere else did - yet, wierdly, the United Kingdom retain such odd pre-modern things as having different legal systems in different parts of the country and still being more than completely notionally comprised of separate sub-units that only happen to lie together.

somebody once asked him about how the Austria Hungary football match was going to go, and he replied absentmindedly "who are we playing?"

This took me about 45 seconds to get but wow.

xp not sure that's true for "England", arguably the case for Britain/ United Kingdom/ British Isles though...

Sounds about right, Neil. Hating foreigners together is, sadly, a very efficient way of forging national identity.

I think that Italy and Germany have routinely gone through various periods of national yearning and national apathy since the end of the classical era. Germany had to shed Switzerland and Austria to make it happen in 1870 but it was still a pretty good deal to them. Italy is about as disillusioned as possible about unity right now, as far as I can tell.

Marquis de Feuquieres †

^^ this guy is pretty great btw, even more wily than richelieu

the United Kingdom retain such odd pre-modern things as having different legal systems in different parts of the country and still being more than completely notionally comprised of separate sub-units that only happen to lie together.

Never conquered by Napoleon or undergone a post-1789 style revolution.

and introducing parliamentarianism 200 years before everyone else helped.

one of the key questions of English history is "why no revolution?", though of course you might view France (and, later, Russia) as being the anomalous examples, and the slow evolution of English institutions as (generally) the norm across, at least, Northern and Western Europe.

"why no revolution?"

Dissolution of monasteries, Civil War and Dictatorship, Glorious Rebellion, Reform Acts of '32 and '67

neither side likes to see it this way, really, but the american revolution WAS the english revolution: geographical and socio-political constraints ensured the convulsion was limited to "britain west", and that half the sundered entity continued in one pre-revolutionary fashion, and the other became what it became -- those who favoured the transformation (eg paine; cobbett) either moved entirely to the new regime, or moved and then returned and tried to re-import some of its elements

The Cousins' Wars

FWIW, a very Catholic historian friend of mine thinks the book has an enormous pro-Protestant bias -- "and then the noble Protestants attacked and seized Prague, but the cowardly, treacherous Catholics got it back" etc.

Protestant bias from England?!

it has... something of a protestant bias. but not that extent by any means!

it has a much stronger "pro-peace" and "anti-prolonging this useless war" bias

she tends to have very kind words for ferdinand

everyone has kind words for ferdinand

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5uTl8P_QI5c/TBf6QsgTzUI/AAAAAAAAH0w/9BSzhIjty3U/s400/ferdinand2.jpg

except franco

FWIW, a very Catholic historian friend of mine thinks the book has an enormous pro-Protestant bias -- "and then the noble Protestants attacked and seized Prague, but the cowardly, treacherous Catholics got it back" etc.

the Catholics are the bad guys in that war, though, with their popery and wanting to bring everyone under the Habsburg yoke. Nearly all the others are also the bad guys, though. I love how the Lutherans revolt against the strictures of popery, and then start laying into other types of Protestant for not following their particular line.

I think in one of CVW's books about the English/Irish/Scottish civil wars she talks about the Marquis of Montrose's army as a wonderful example to the world, because it contained people of all kinds of different faith. One of the things that is always striking about the 17th century is how long it takes people to register that society might just work better for everyone if you just let people follow whatever religion they like.

she tends to have very kind words for ferdinand

in general doesn't CVW tend to have kind words for everyone? She keeps falling over herself to defend that drunken waster John of Saxony, and even feels a little bit sorry for poor Tilly after his soldiers have massacared 30,000 people at Magdeburg.

CVW's tendency to sympathise with everyone is even more notable in her brilliant books "The King's Peace" and "The King's War", about the wars in England/Ireand/Scotland in the mid 17th century

D’jall read Tyll? I liked it!

no that looks cool tho! haven’t read grimmelhausen either. was gonna take a look at schiller’s wallenstein trilogy to see if it would be suited for my ongoing community-focused project of proposing plays absolutely no one wants to see.

grimmelshausen. i was working without a net there.

"based" !!

As today is the day everybody and their aunt will quote the famous St. Francis quote
"Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary"
to you, it is almost painful to be THAT spoilsport and tell you... it is NOT by St. Francis.
Sorry folks.
As based as it sounds. pic.twitter.com/UF0pUE5ARp

— Eduard Habsburg (@EduardHabsburg) October 4, 2022