Batman carries on beginning in ... The Dark Knight

(And even that is changing what with our embrace of gritty realism as virtuous in our storytelling)

I was about to reflexively disagree with you, Dan, but then thought for a second that there's really not much difference between, say, Batman and The Punisher, aside from Bruce Wayne having a respectable public persona.

But if you want to pursue that line of thought, then maybe Iron Man and any post-Civil War registered heroes aside, most comic book heroes are really antiheroes, operating as they do outside the confines of the law.

and most don't have natural powers of their own!

Yes, I do realize DK is a fantasy, just like Burton's Batman is. However, there are different ways of doing a fantasy story. Burton is more interested in using the characters as archetypes and pays less attention to character psychology. Nolan's approach has much more to do with individual psychology; hell, about half of BB was spent explaining the psychological reasons why Bruce Wayne wants to be Batman. Now, I felt that within this more psychological, more "realistic" approach (I'm not using the word "realistic" here to say that DK is less of a fantasy, rather than to describe a certain aesthetic and narrative approach that is more prominent in the Nolan Batman movies than in the Burton movies, and which generally ties with "realism" as applied in art) Dent's transformation to Two-Face didn't feel credible. In less realistic and more fable-like stories, like Burton's Batman movies or many Batman comics, this wouldn't have been an issue, because psychological explanations are less important in them.

i think it's perfectly fair to not think dent's transformation is credible. i think it's fine myself, because i don't think this movie is aspiring to psychological realism, despite the fact that nolan IS obviously quite interested in the psychology of the batman & his nemeses.

but i don't think his approach is all that different from anyone else; this is a character where the psychological element HAS always been at the forefront, driven by trauma and guilt... i mean, you yourself said that you preferred a more "archetype"-driven approach... don't you know where that term comes from?

Also, when I said that I liked Burton's more fable-like movies more, I didn't mean that I necessarily want Batman to be less dark. Like you said, many fables are very dark, and Burton's movies are dark too, but they're dark in a different way. I feel that the "grim and gritty" approach pioneered by Frank Miller, and followed by many other Batman stories (including Nolan's two films) isn't a particularly good one, because it tries to insert "realistic" themes (such as an individual psychology) and issues (vigilantism, the political implications of Batman's work) into these stories, which is at odds with the inherently fantastic/fable-like nature of the whole idea of superheroes.

what would you call pre-frank miller batman if not a vigilante, tuomas??? what is your word for what batman does? i am asking you this as someone who thinks frank miller is god f'ing awful and should shut the hell up forever.

i mean, that is what the character is, and the idea that exploring any implications behind that is somehow inherently at odds with the "fable-like" nature of this particular vigilante "superhero" is really odd to me.

this is all said ignoring the fact that fables are virtually by definition fantastic explorations of political implications of societal actions or morals btw.

it just seems like there is no room for argument in your world behind hyper-realist psychodramas and fantastic tales and that is why most of us are pretty confused and argue with you, over and over again, on this subject. there's a huge grey area. it's ok to say that you think nolan's films fail; but i think it's unfair to fail them on grounds they aren't trying to achieve.

this is all said ignoring the fact that fables are virtually by definition fantastic explorations of political implications of societal actions or morals btw.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

or psychology!

'fables' were meant to explain human behavior through example, psychology before there was such a thing.

god why are we bothering

we're doing it for batman

yeah that is what i mean! i guess by "morals" i was including psychology of the type tuomas is talking about -- i just don't understand what he thinks the word "fable" means and it makes it impossible for me to understand his point, at all.

i mean, i guess his point ultimately is "i like batman to be cartoony" which is fine but what is the rest of this, it is crazy pills. i dunno, it's just that...this is what fables ARE and this all seems so black and white, superheros drive like this etc.

ugh why did the phrase "we're doing it for batman" immediately put "world in motion" in my head. i'm getting more coffee.

i remembered loving the burton batman movies until i saw them recently...god...older action movies seem SO stiff and poorly choreographed (the action sequences) compared to post matrix/hong kong influenced stuff...the fights in burton's batman look more like the old tv show or something, makes it hard to watch.

plus nicholson's joker...ug...i hate him mincing around, the old ham

batman has a super secret spying device that taps into every cell phone -- he says he needs this thing but he knows it's immoral so he hands the controls to a trusted friend. they use it once and then shut it down, and the friend's trust in batman is forever diminished

^^ how is this not a fable? considering the situation on which it comments (US domestic wiretapping) is still an active controversy ie unfinished ie politicized ie non-narrative. the fact that it's 'modern' or 'dark' or whatever doesn't stop it from being a simple moral tale.

it involves cell phones instead of donkeys going up a hill or something so it's not a fable hellooooooooooo

so let me get this straight if batman and morgan freeman were arguing over a donkey going up a hill it would be a fable

only if Morgan Freeman gets eaten by a wolf dressed as his grandmother

plus nicholson's joker...ug...i hate him mincing around, the old ham

― M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, December 19, 2008 11:30 AM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fuck you dude is hilarious in that movie.... you sound like you been using BRAND X!!!!!

nah Matt is right and the first movie is really terrible (not all Nicholson's fault at all - really he's the best thing in it, probably. Which is kinda sad). Its weird how such a shitty movie kicked off this whole Hollywood-loves-comic-books thing that has dominated for the last 20 years.

i think it's a good movie. michael keaton just kickin it reminds me of rdj in iron man.

yeah Shakey, it was "shitty," you could comprehend what was going on.

can't argue with that

yeah Shakey, it was "shitty," you could comprehend what was going on.

lolz what the first movie makes next to no sense!

seriously I don't even know where to begin

anybody repping for batman begins over the o.g. 89 batman can basically suck my fuccin balls

i know that my standards of film are just whether or not i can comprehend the dynamics on the screen.

spying on 30 million people using a donkey wasn't in my job description batmaaaaahhhhhhh no grandma nooooo

basically this clip >>>> your entire life, shakey mo collier

seriously, let's break this down to real talk: who the fuck are these ppl who cannot comprehend the action/plot/storyline of ANY of the batman films? i mean even batman forever, for god's sake. if you can't comprehend these films then there is something wrong with you and maybe you need to do some sudoku or brain age or something, exercise that mind keep it fresh etc. no exceptions. they are not rocket science.

if you think some myspace angle shot andy dick soundalike joker beats that seriously go kill yourself

ALLY OTM

maybe i was being too hard on nicholson, but doesn't anyone else start to get bored with older 80s action flicks sometimes...like just in terms of ACTION, it's all so stiff.

i actually like Keaton a lot, I pretty much think he one of the most underrated actors.

i didn't feel like burton's batman was hard to understand. just parts seemed kinda stagey and stiff IMO. (like all the action parts)

if you think some myspace angle shot andy dick soundalike joker beats that seriously go kill yourself

― Dr. Yakubius (and what), Friday, December 19, 2008 12:12 PM (51 seconds ago)

^^^ dude i don't even know what you mean by this but quite frankly i DO think that description actually sounds f'ing hilarious and beats jack nicholson.

i mean ok i havent seen dark knight but im watching clips right now

what the fuck is this? this isnt funny

meanwhile this flashback from the mostly boring batman beyond movie is the best shit ever (warning 10 minute long video but its super fkn awesome)

lol i pasted the wrong youtube clip up there i meant this dark knight video

okay.... joker?

needs a prince song

crap, crap, crap, crap, crap... THIS, i like

"vicki waiting" is a good song

anyway i liked dark knight.

the biggest problem with burton's first batman is that is such a terrible prince song that i can't get past it

wasn't morbz making the point that nu-batman sux cause of all the fast-moving whatnots

lol you whippersnappers and your fast-cut action sequences in my day we just had claymation out-of-scale monkeys chasin girls and we were happy with it goddamnit

maybe i was being too hard on nicholson, but doesn't anyone else start to get bored with older 80s action flicks sometimes...like just in terms of ACTION, it's all so stiff.

road warrior, always fresh

i like fast moving whatnots and stuff that looks rad ninja stylee

really every morbz could just be replaced with "you whippersnappers"

YESSSSSSSSS... action sequences edited by Cuisinart where one cannot tell who is where doing what to whom are well-fucked. Keep it on yr joystick.

also Batcave dweller ian says TDK "dragged a bit" -- DANGER

i mean ok i havent seen dark knight but im watching clips right now

wait, you haven't seen TDK

Keep it on yr joystick.

^^^ haha how rude, don't make this thread dirty

no dogg i talk about that upthread

Keep it on yr joystick.

LOL this is the most cranky old man shit basically ever

didnt wanna see it cuz i hated batman begins + it looked supergay

^stopped clock, right

retroactive Oscar for Jim Carrey's Riddler plz