Bashir's Michael Jackson circus......

What would would be the probability that eventually greed would get the better of one of the parents and that they would sue? My guess is, certainly more than 50% and probably close to 100%.

Which doesn't prove Jackson's innocent but it should stop people jumping to conclusions.

i think the evidence points to: here is a phenomenally gifted but at the same time tremendously repressed, angry, unhappy, fucked-up, self-hating individual who's tried to compensate for all this not by finding a way to understand any of it*, but instead by constructing a fantasy paradise haven for himself and "other children like him", which in its wealth-based divorce from ordinary adult reality was only ever going to last until the money ran out, when the repressed wd return with screeching vengeance

*though unconscious stabs towards self-revelation can be found i. in many of his songs, some of which are incredibly dark and violent ("i am the damned, i am the dead, i am the agony inside a dying head"), and ii. his surgery, which is like some self-destructive punk rocker who tattoos "fuck the world" on his forehead (he wasn't consciously prettifying himself, he was unconsciously uglifying himself)

And you don't think that having had to pay an estimated out-of-court settlement of $15M might have given him at least a pointer?

As Killian pointed out above:

"This is the same cat who went up to a mentally I'll sly stone and virtually hijacked his copyrights
this is the same cat who ignored every single racial issue in his life than brought out sharpton when his records stopped selling.

this is ths same cat whgo took advantage of the greatest duo in pop history ( Lennon and Mccartney)by buying the rights to the beatle’s music and desecrating it by pimping the songs to major corporations."

.... and you want me to believe that this individual is NAIF!!?!?!

he's hardly a master of either accumulative business shrewdness or media manipulation (doing the bashir thing at all = he is naive!!) (by contrast howard hughes — who i don't think was naive at all — remained good with money and media until close to the end: in particular NEVER exposing himself....)

*rolls eyes*

the beatle’s music ... desecrating it

*rolls eyes back even further*

I know someone who has worked with Jackson, and who says that the root of all of his mental problems, aside from the child/adult stuff, is that he feels that he cannot trust anyone - absolutely anyone at all - since he thinks that everyone is trying to get something from him. A problem more than a few very famous people have faced before, but probably magnified in this case, since he has been at this outrageously uncomfortable level of fame for most of his life. Maybe this is why he thinks that children are more trustworthy than adults, for when he was a child, his reality was continually being destroyed by the adults around him - whose trust he was supposed to have had, like his father's, of course. And maybe this is why he only surrounds himself with yes-men now: by keeping himself insulated by people who will indulge his ever whim he can pretend that he has won their trust.

I think the regression aspect of "going back into childhook" is obvious enough - Peter Pan never wanted to grow up and leave Neverland, and neither does Michael Jackson. It's a neurotic condition, born out of a desperation to live what was perceived to have been lost or denied (a childhood), in the first place. The irony: his self-constructed childhoos has by now lasted longer than a regular childhood usually does. And we already know what Freud et al (of course they were correct only in the most general sense), have already said about how neuroses are sexualized, or connected to "arrested development," sexually speaking. He is quite turned on by the idea of childhood, literally; does this mean he could have been unconsciously coming onto the children ? Probably ? But was there ever any real malice in his intentions, to harm the child? Probably not. He was sadly probably unaware of how uncomfortable the child(ren) must have been...it's unconscious...

The only solution, aside from years and years of strenous therapy (in this case, hypnosis would be the only effective measure, imo), would be just to leave him alone in his fantasy world, but somehow remove the potential threat of his neurtoic behavior. Let him live in his own world, but remove the possibility of his being able to harm anyone there. In other words, remove him from the children - take all of them away from the ranch, the mansion, forever. I don't know if I feel the same way about his children, but I think they should be living with their respective mothers, not him, and that his visits should be supervised - it sounds horrile to deny a private relationship, but at least not until they are old enough to grow out of their vulnerable childhoods, they shouldn't be alone with him.

The problem, however, of removing the children from his fantasy world, would be to shatter it smewhat - he would find himself being a lonely, isolated child again, not finding anyone to share his "childhood" with, wouldn't he? But perhaps this cracking would be an evolutionary breakthrough for him, it might, it just might force him to realize that childhood is just not a place where he wants to be anymore, especially when he has to be there all by himself, bereft of other children to "share" it with. Perhaps, then, slowly (along with the intense counseling, of course), he could start to re-enter the world of adulthood (or enter it fully for the first time), after the craving for adult relationships would begin, as a result of forced loneliness. And please get rid of the yes-men. One problem: how do you ignite the genesis of an adult, normal sexuality in an individual who has been fetishing children for so long? How will the desire for adult relationships be instilled within him, when he does not have any real sexual feelings for adults... these are hard questions to answer, since I do not know even if awareness of his condition could actually foster an authentic desire to have adult sexual contact, when that desire hasn't been there for years (but was it dormant?). It's almost as if in the therapy, he's have to undergo puberty & adolescence (for the first time?), and only THEN be able to reach adulthood, the way the rest of us did - that'd be the only way he could mature out of his childlike state. It's really bizarre to think of, since the biological timing is obviously quite off, but it'd have to be mind over matter, as they say. Just imagine him calling Ms. Taylor and asking: "what's happening to my bawdy, Liz, it's strange but I'm getting these URGES when I see National Velvet now..."

The Bahsir betrayal is only going to deepen his troubles, for starters.

Why am I still writing this??????? I 've put far too much thought into Michael jackson, shoot me!!!

let's say it this way: the sandwiches MJ originally brought to the picnic were not widely or automatically available

Fair point Mark, 'though I still think there are levels of functionality to be considered here, of which "business shrewdness" and "media manipulation" must rank pretty highly, whereas recognising that most people aren't going to be happy with the idea of a single adult male sharing his bed with a succession of young children probably ranks slightly above recognising that you shouldn't play on the motorway or stick your fingers in electrical sockets, as a basic survival skill if nothing else!

I also don't think he's capabale of enough calculation to actually change his appearance/body for the sake of keeping others at bay - I think he feels cut off from them, helplessly, due to identity he has to live with day fter day. Which is why the company of children, children he can trust, is what he seeks out...innocent fun ike climibing trees and starting food fights (careful, don't hit the shnozz! it'll fall in the mashed potatos!) is what fulfills him...and the sexual feelings he experiences towards the children, if he does at all, are unconscious.

You know, thats how many fetishes and hang-ups start: wanting something so bad. Wanting to BE it. Thinking you NEED t, then realizing even your BODY craves it. Being in love with an inanimate object, or concept, you have such a strongly emotional issue with (for him, it's childhood) --> in the psyche things can get twisted, and you start desiring the object/concept in a sexual manner, without even realizing it, since its attainment is supposed to emotionally satisfy you on such a deep level in the first place. Emotions/sexuality, you know the foggy connections. It's a wonder how the mind functions, or dysfunctions.

I could almost attest in terms of first-person experience on how some fetishes work this way, but since I'm one of the least-well-known regular posters on here, I'm not going to break the imagined spell just yet =)

It seemed clear that the accusations of paedophilia really really bother him. He looked so angry and distraught when he was being asked about that. I would imagine he did the program to try and make people see him in a different light.

I just hated the way they moralized about him. Like everyone in America doesn't have a Peter Pan complex. Like every other celebrity hasn't had too much plastic surgery. Bashir was asking him about having surrogate children as if it was a bizarre crime. Kept going on about how he likes to sit in a tree and think as if this was outrageous.

I don't know. I'm speaking as someone born in the mid '70s, and obviously I didn't witness Jackson 5-mania firsthand -- still, I don't get the impression that race was ever a huge stumbling block in MJ's career path. It could just be a personal hangup he has, not any specific career move.

Again I agree to an extent Mark, although I'm not at all sure whether that's because he's testing the boundaries of his reality by getting gradually closer and closer to the traffic ; or because he's craving the oblivion of having one of those great big lorries finally splatter him all over the motorway; or because he's started believing that he controls the traffic and the lorries can't hurt him.

Some more concrete explanations for his child-fetish:

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)

No. I know the traditional response to something like this is supposed to be [something like!] "Martha Graham!?" but I wouldn't know who it is, i just don't think he's the greatest the world has ever seen, despite how good he is. Or was. Take away the moonwalk, and how unique are his moves?

Not that uniqueness is anything significant i pop-dancing, but even in regards to traditional forms of hoofing around, he couldn't win a dance-off with Astaire. And doesn't his nose have an increased chance of falling off these days, when he performs ?

*children aren't financially savvy (they won't swindle him out of his money)

*children don't know about sex (they won't be aggressive or predatory in a way that scares him)

*children are too young to be aware of who exactly Michael Jackson is (and they won't judge him, unlike the rest of the world)"

Of course if he believes any of those things (bearing in mind that the "children" we saw on the programme / we're talking about appear to be aged between about 8 and 14) then he really *IS* naif!

How many financially savvy, sexually aggressive, Jacko-bashing eight-year-olds do you know?

That's what I figure Mark - which must means that at certain times of the day at least (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say *on some level*) he must be fully conscious that a great deal of his behaviour is at very least inappropriate.

I think this is true, and what I was trying to say anyway. Him believing this does not make him naive, on the contrary it's closer to pragmatism, really.

I don't know many who aren't capable of swindling someone out of money or being aggressive and predatory under the right circumstances - and I'd be prepared to bet that I don't know a single one who doesn't know who Michael Jackson is!

Five bucks is not a million dollars.

I caught the tail end of a documentary about a paedophile ring the other night. This could be a description of one of the men arrested - it was clear his view of what he had done was completely at odds with what the vast majority of people would think about it.

recognising that most people aren't going to be happy with the idea of a single adult male sharing his bed with a succession of young children probably ranks slightly above recognising that you shouldn't play on the motorway or stick your fingers in electrical sockets, as a basic survival skill if nothing else!

He's very very rich. He doesn't need to pay much attention to what anyone else thinks of his behaviour.

It might be to an eight year old! ;~)

Well, it works better for me than the assumption that everyone else in the world is entirely one-dimensional.

It's not proof that you aren't one, either. In the case I mentioned, the man arrested had taken part with others in some pretty horrific sex crimes, but he didn't see them as crimes, or even as being wrong. The outrage was a result of his being (as he saw it) persecuted for his "innocent" love of pre-pubescent children.

I think it's a fairly common pattern for some people to do things the rest of us would find reprehensible, and for them not even to recognise that their behaviour is wrong (see Ernest Saunders and the Guinness case for a less emotive example).

A great many 8 years olds, when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, will give you a look of wide-eyed innocence and say something along the lines of "what?".

Most of them do, however, do know that they shouldn't be pinching cookies.

Yes he does, since other people liking him is what made him rich.
At first, I withheld judgement of his sleep-overs, but I think he does have a problem and most likely is molesting people.
I tried to put myself in his position and give him the benefit of the doubt. So, I love children. I think sharing my bed is wholesome and forms a deep bond with a child (stay with me here).
But, after I got any grief for having children in my bed, after it caused my career to disintegrate, after I was investigated for my activities, I would come to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. Sure, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but it's just too much of a hassle. After all, it's not like I need to sleep with them.
By MJ continuing to sleep w/kids after all the trouble its caused him, it shows he can't stop and leads me to believe it's not innocent.

I'm not sure I share this belief, however I really can't believe that MJ could have been in any doubt that a great many people would reach this conclusion

"(Once again, he didn't actually say he slept in the same bed with the kids.)"

Actually, as Jody Beth rightly pointed out earlier, he did specifically say that Macaulay and Kieran Culkin used to sleep one on either side of him. I'm not sure he actually stipulated whether they did so in a bed, on the floor or halfway up a tree but then, I don't think *where* they did so is really the issue.

"Yes he does, since other people liking him is what made him rich."

In fact he is rich - and in trouble - as a result of very, very desperately wanting people to like him.

Having surrogate children in itself is not a crime. Maintaining that the mothers of these children "gave" those children "as a gift" to him, and that he "snatched" the second one "still covered in the placenta" and ran because he "didn't want to hear anything bad" is pretty much bizarre to the fuckin' letter. Did you watch the footage when he was trying to feed the baby? Did you watch him during the footage at the zoo? I think one would be very hard-pressed to call him model parent.

"Kept going on about how he likes to sit in a tree and think as if this was outrageous."

Ya gotta admit......it's pretty fuckin' weird though, eh? When was the last time *YOU* climbed a tree?

Yes he did. I have the tape. Shall we go over it together?

So everyone who's famous in the industry is there because they really are the most talented people around? Not anyone could "be" Michael Jackson, you're right. You need someone especially twisted to "be" Michael Jackson. In that respect, you're right. But truly, is Britney Spears so incredibly talented that what she does no one else who's been trained since birth to do what she does couldn't do it? Or for that matter, be better at whatever it is that Britney Spears does?

Of course media is "uber-powerful". As it has proven time and time again, it can shove crap on society that it doesn't want, until through repetition, it accepts it (eg, Limp Bizkit). That doesn't mean Michael Jackson is devoid of talent or ability, but to believe that he's the only person who could have sung those songs and danced like that is absurd. Perhaps they wouldn't have sold 25 million units and made 15 minute music videos, but they could and would have been successful.

-
Alan

-
Alan

I can point you to numerous psychological studies that conclude that children who consistently sleep w/adults (usually their parents, but I'm sure it applies to non-family members even moreso) past the age of 4 or so demonstrate various developmental/emotional problems. Let me know if you want me to look some up.

and i have a friend who is 44 and great with kids who i totally trust and my kid likes him, and mom and pop have to go off somewhere but not with kid bcz of school, and my pal babysits - except my kid has a nightmare and climbs into bed with my pal

Q: should i worry about this?
A: it depends...

why i objected to the original question = it's just way too vague to make any kind of sensible judgement, despite alex's increasingly dotty frothing

Don't be so sure.
I know someone who served 12 years in prison for being at the scene of a crime and attempting to help the person.
Obviously, he is black.

When I start dottily frothing, you'll fuckin' KNOW IT, mate!

Frankly, no.

My children are not allowed out of the Skinner box.

http://sfgate.com/gallery/pod/

"Warrant Issued for Jackson's Arrest" - 751 related stories