Spike Lee: Dud or DUD?!?

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (656 of them)
ditto to 'all of his movies are great, including the ones that suck'

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 25 May 2003 22:03 (twenty years ago) link

I've got issues with the dude, but man, as long as Oliver Stone walks the earth, I can't complain about Spike too loudly.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

faves are easily Crooklyn & Clockers. least favorite today is definitely Bamboozled.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:26 (twenty years ago) link

Spike's sister was walking her dog down my block on Monday morning. Next time I see her, I'll be sure to tell her a bunch of people on the internet think her brother sucks. She'll be happy to hear it, I'm sure.

hstencil, Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:27 (twenty years ago) link

God, do you think she's unaware? Ask her how it feels to be the only woman who will never have to play a hooker or have sex with him in one of his movies.

btw, Spike seriously needs to start playing leads in his films again. Enough of this gratuitous cameo bullshit.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:32 (twenty years ago) link

You have a lot of misplaced rage, yes?

hstencil, Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:36 (twenty years ago) link

you're accusing me of that on a Spike Lee thread? Ironic.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:39 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, based on the post that began this thread, I'd say I was the one w/ the wee anger issue. Wee, that is.

_25th Hour_ is great, BTW.

David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:40 (twenty years ago) link

Spike Lee: Dud or DUD?!?

All of the above.

Pinche Pendejo (Pinche Pendejo), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

Ask her how it feels to be the only woman who will never have to play a hooker or have sex with him in one of his movies.

I happen to think that Spike Lee has some very grebt directorial skillz (the closing scene of Jungle Fever made up for all its unevenness, I thought) but Anthony is completely on the money here.

Joel are we not to speak ill of ppl who have brothers and sisters, is that the deal? gosh I hope not

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

ruby dee played a hooker?

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

you're accusing me of that on a Spike Lee thread? Ironic.

Actually Anthony I could accuse you of that on just about any thread, but this one was the one I was posting to.

Yes, John, every single woman in every Spike Lee movie is a hooker or has sex with him. But where is the scene in Do the Right Thing where Mookie gets it on with Mother Superior? Or in Crooklyn where Spike the glue-sniffer gets it on with Ms. Woodard (I always forget her name)?

hstencil, Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:45 (twenty years ago) link

angela bassett played a ho?

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:46 (twenty years ago) link

To be serious for a second, seeing as I now live near Bed-Stuy, a seriously impoverished neighborhood, I'd have to say that Spike is classic if only for setting some of his films there. Who the fuck else in Hollywood would even bother to tell stories like that of Mookie the pizza delivery guy, or of Spike's own upbringing (Crooklyn)? Yes he's made some stinkers, but I'd take even those over 99% of the mindless drivel that Hollywood pumps out on a daily basis.

hstencil, Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:51 (twenty years ago) link

i really like the films i've seen by him (crooklyn,jungle fever,do the right thing,summer of sam)
clockers is alright but the book is a lot better,has anyone read it?

robin (robin), Sunday, 25 May 2003 23:54 (twenty years ago) link

now you guys are complaining about me overgeneralizing on a Spike Lee thread? The irony abounds!

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 26 May 2003 00:04 (twenty years ago) link

Just so you guys don't cry into the night because I'm so irreverent about him, I think Lee is mad talented, and all of his movies, even Bamboozled, have classic moments. That said he both bravely and cowardly falls on his ass so many times that I can't treat him like a prophet or something.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 26 May 2003 00:05 (twenty years ago) link

Ha! I was just about to search for a thread about Spike Lee, having just watched 25th Hour again. Mark (S) is right that several of his films are deeply indebted to Scorcese et al but I believe they fully transcend their (gag) influences, although there are a few embarrassing moments in the otherwise-v.g. Clockers. Like a lot of directors he needs a good script to keep him reasonably focused. His own script for He's Got Game was pretty good, but the script for 25th Hour is extraordinary (save for some probs with the Naturelle character).

Ally's right that sometimes he seems a bit ADD--my first thought upon seeing one of his films is often, "Stop cutting so much" (not least the hectic opening scene of 25th Hour but he does make of this style more than almost any other contemporary Hollywood filmmaker and he knows how to be patient when he needs to--sometimes.

I'm totally in his fan club.

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 26 May 2003 03:11 (twenty years ago) link

I liked Summer of Sam -- it was 45 minutes longer than it needed to be, and the CBGB stuff was really retarded, but I thought the film did a great job capturing what it was like living life at the ass-end of the outer boroughs in the deadliest part of summer. The blackout scenes were dynamite.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 26 May 2003 04:32 (twenty years ago) link

I went to see Summer of Sam with the father of an old friend (who was then in Brazil). He was completely appalled. On the scene where he closes-up on the "Dead End" sign and whirls the camera around, my friend's dad shouted "Oh, God. This is like something from the '50s!!" (??) and afterward he just talked about how he didn't want to hear about anal sex.

That "Dead End" shot reminded me of a scene from Cecil B. De Mille's Dynamite, where our hero and heroine and trapped in a coal mine and suddenly spy a box of dynamite: close-up of box of dynamite, labelled "DYNAMITE." Cut to shot of hero and heroine. Heroine exclaims, "Dynamite!" Cut back to close-up of box of dynamite. Hold for 10 seconds. ... Somewhere in the audience, a 3-yr-old shouts, "Enough already!"

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 26 May 2003 05:19 (twenty years ago) link

Summer of Sam probably the movie of his I like least

James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 26 May 2003 05:56 (twenty years ago) link

sistra becky and i did not spot the cameo in 25th hr and think he may have got over that

his tremendous skills and his glaring weakness are generally all tied up in the same knot i think — he is good at really unexpected things which he then completely distracts you from by some shouty bit of business (that said, rosie perez shouting in do the right thing is just some of the funniest, sexiest acting in cinema)

i love that he LOVES LOVES LOVES new york, and even the "fuck you" mirror monologue in 25th hour — which starts out you think it's a clunkadunk hommage to TWO iconic scenes in taxi driver in one go, and i think also some stuff in raging bull!! — which ultradisses koreans, gays, italians, cops, blacks, old rich ladies, taxi drivers etc etc, is a kind of sweep-of-the-city love poem after all

he's also the only person i can quickly think of who's carried on using godard's cartoon swiftness and kept it political AND funny — this is where he falls down most often (godard too probably) but in 25th hour there one scene (v.late on) which i won't spoil, which is basically just a single photo set-up, that packs SO much into it abt america, and lee and america, and black-and-white in america, and the past and the future. and what could be and what is, and what's stopping what ought to be

(eg tarantino can also to the godard cartoon thing but tarantino's politics never get beyond the immediate circle out into the big city world and public arena blah blah)

25th hr is VERY deft abt exactly all the things lee has previously been very UNdeft abt: esp.what's so pernicious in jungle fever

it's had flak here (in the UK) for the 9-11 stuff being sellotaped clumsily in but i didn't think that at all: it's like it's the current affairs catalyst for spike to acknowledge american possibility and generosity ALSO, even though he's still utterly politcally realistic abt it, not sentimental or bullying

mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 May 2003 10:23 (twenty years ago) link

yes hstencil yr right of course, lee's women are very complex characters, one never asks oneself "was it really necessarily for this character to get butt naked and occupy center-lens for the duration of the scene?"

Anthony remains OTM insofar as Spike Lee, whose work I generally like a lot, is something of a sexist. So are a lot of people, I'm not saying "dismiss him!" or anything. But the women he writes are caricatures, and the exceptions you point out draw attention to this rule.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 May 2003 12:32 (twenty years ago) link

I enjoyed "Summer Of Sam" a lot. I found the characters and their interplay interesting, and that whole sense of people individually and the city in general losing it was very well done.

I also found "Get On The Bus" to be an entertaining and uplifting film, albeit with shite music.

And years ago, when I saw "Fight The Power", I liked that too.

So I say that Spike Lee is CLASSIC.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 26 May 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link

Intentional error there, DV?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 26 May 2003 15:19 (twenty years ago) link

Mark, remember that the 25th Hour monologue wasn't written by Lee, but by Benioff, the screenwriter--I would imagine that it owes as much to a vaguely similar monologue in Do the Right Thing as to the Scorses models you mention. Anyway it's wonderfully realized visually: the imagery that's referenced as grotesque the first time around reappears as elegaic the second time around. I'm not sure which shot you're referring to toward the end, but the one (throwaway?) shot that gets me is

*spoilers*


in the "25th hour" fantasy where Norton sits for a passport photo. There's a shot, held for just four or five seconds but an eternity in this context, of the man running the photo shop. There's something in the countenance and speech of this kindly eccentric (his ears and mouth riddled with studs, suggesting some of kind of Hell's Angel settled down) that's extremely generous, that cuts through the (hilarious) New Yorker's vision of the Rest of the America that is the bulk of that remarkable conclusion. I dunno, the whole sequence and that shot in particular must have been difficult to pull off--without enough little odd bits of business it would've seemed too ludicrous, too vain...with too much detail it would've seemed like a real forking-paths narrative which was NOT the point--but Lee and Benioff did it.

In this film the criticism of the harsh drugs laws is part and parcel with the shots of the WTC site and the backstories of the broker and the school teacher--something like a sum total of America's mistakes and abuses, responsibilities and blindnesses, fissures and reconciliations. I found the WTC stuff moving and totally germane, not least because it would have been this huge FACT that would continue to come 'round and smack the characters in the face. Philip Seymour Hoffman's stunned "whoah" when he sees the site from above felt like the kind of line that risked risked ridicule (for its seriousness/earnestness/"clumsiness") to achieve truth.

The Russian mobsters verged on cartoonish Scorsese territory, and that one scene threatened to make real some of the xenophobia expressed in the monologue. Oh well.

By "Godard's cartoon swiftness" what do you mean exactly?

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 26 May 2003 16:47 (twenty years ago) link

* spoilers spoilers spoilers*

**That's not the specific shot I meant no, but almost as rich, albeit with difft material. What I meant wz the bi-racial family with kids, plus American Gothic backdrop: but tied in to a lot of what you just said, about generosity and possibility.**

* spoilers over spoilers over spoilers over*


And by Godard's cartoon swiftness, I mean dropping an image like that (or a sequence of them) where everything reads very clearly and swiftly, a whole queue of layers of semiosis (semioses?) that's absolutely precisely achieved. The way you scan and then read them gives you the narrative, the character's take on the narrative, the authorial take on the narrative, and the wider political-historical perspective, not in one go exactly, but in one during-reading sweep of the screen. As in: oh this happened, this is what they thought, haha this is what spike thinks, and this is how it fits into America as a story....

That's not very exact, sorry.

mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 May 2003 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

I don't usually think of Godard as packing a great density of meaning into a single shot, but then I'm not as familiar with his movies as I perhaps should be. I've actually seen more of his '80s and '90s work, which is a lot different from the '60s stuff that "Godard" usually invokes.

I'm a sucker for those portrait sitting-esque compositions with in their (manufactured) stiffness recall some of the awkwardness of real life, and a lot of its truth in the bargain. Distant Voices, Still Lives is the best example of this I know. (Wondering what you think of that film, Mark.)

Funny how a thread w/the title "Spike Lee: Dud or Dud" has (d)evolved into this! ILE makes me happy today.

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 26 May 2003 19:10 (twenty years ago) link

yes i meant 60s godard: the pop classix!!

mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 May 2003 19:12 (twenty years ago) link

Anthony remains OTM insofar as Spike Lee, whose work I generally like a lot, is something of a sexist. So are a lot of people, I'm not saying "dismiss him!" or anything. But the women he writes are caricatures, and the exceptions you point out draw attention to this rule.

And this is remarkable or notable for mainstream American filmmakers in what way?

hstencil, Tuesday, 27 May 2003 03:17 (twenty years ago) link

bell h00ks wrote a v.fierce piece for S&S abt girl six arguing for its heroic progressiveness in re sex and gender wars (or was it the opposite?) (just bcz i sub and proof something doesn't mean i READ IT PROPERLY y'all)

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 09:43 (twenty years ago) link

My problem with 25th Hour was that all the other characters we so much more interesting that the narcissistic Ed Norton one. Which might be the point (in talking about New York if EN represents and aspect of it) but makes it really hard to watch. And the scores in his films are getting worse and worse.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 09:49 (twenty years ago) link

listen out for the ecstatic moment when terence blanchard attempts evocative oirish diddly-diddly uillean (sp) pipes!!

to be fair i think the score's OK, and norton — while a bit flat yes as per — is far from unwatchable

to be honest i don't understand why any actor living says yes when they find they're playing lead to phillip seymour hoffman's second (or indeed 20th) banana => i believe i wd avidly gaze at a warhol-esque slo-mo epic of PSH cracking a smile slowed down so that it takes 24hrs

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 09:58 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure Mark, I wanted to strangle him in Love Liza.

Not the worst uillean(sp) pipes of the yea though, they gop to the wandering band in Gangs Of New Yoirk.

Its a pity Zoe Williams didn't think of refering to the ultimate fear of UTBS in the 25th Hour - to reference her Guardian magazine piece. The fear of UTBS and the solution was ridiculous.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 10:16 (twenty years ago) link

bad uillean(sp) pipes = YET ANOTHER SPIKE LEE "HOMMAGE" TO SCORSESE haha!!

(i think fear of having yr teeth bashed out for convenient BigHouse BJs is a justified fear)

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 10:22 (twenty years ago) link

And years ago, when I saw "Fight The Power", I liked that too.

do the right thing, obv.

it's a while since I saw it.

DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 10:50 (twenty years ago) link

But it is one of the most striking examples of a film built with one song in mind. It doesn't follow the song (it's not a narrative song), and no-one quotes lines from it or anything, but it's played something like 20 separate times in the film.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 10:55 (twenty years ago) link

Around the rubbish Jazz score. The one big failing of Do The Right thing is failing to have a decent hip hop score (I think you are misremembering how often Fight The Power comes up in the movie - though the credit sequence with Rosie Perez rubbish dancing to it is excruciating). I love Do The Right Thing btw.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 11:00 (twenty years ago) link

And this is remarkable or notable for mainstream American filmmakers in what way?

...so...ummm..."because there's lots of sexism, we shouldn't fault a talented director for it?" You can't mean that, can you?

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 11:48 (twenty years ago) link

Spike's father, Bill Lee, has done some of his scores too and they're pretty undistinguished. Lee doesn't trust silence enough--there's often soundtrack music playing when there needn't be any (e.g. the scene b/t PSH and Anna Paquiin in the teachers' lounge in 25th Hour). He sometimes has a taste for the most bombastic incidental music imaginable, but bombastic in an Old School Aaron Copland/Dmitri Tiomkin way which I find a least more appealing than the James Horner stuff that gets plastered over some blockbusters these days.

On the other hand Lee's need to have wall-to-wall soundtracks does render those moments when he turns it all off poss. more effective (e.g. the beatdown in 25th Hour).

[[Mark the fact that you are proofing anyone's writing makes me happy. Sometimes I worry that my typo-ridden, grammatically dodgy posts betray my editorial incompetence but now I fear not.]]

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 12:53 (twenty years ago) link

pete - are you kidding? any soundtrack that has (and gives prominent placement) to public enemy, guy, and eu is capturing summer 89 deadon.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 13:20 (twenty years ago) link

90% of the music in Do The Right Thing is pretty lousy sax heavy Jazz. Sure there are a few moments with the beatbox, but the incidental music is mush.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 13:30 (twenty years ago) link

No, John, that's not what I mean but be sure to take it that way anyway. Hell, let's just fault Spike Lee for EVERYTHING that's wrong with American "cinema," why not?

hstencil, Tuesday, 27 May 2003 13:34 (twenty years ago) link

I think that focusing on how shabbily Spike Lee's female characters come across completely ignores how shabbily his male characters come across; the man is all about the fatal flaw and in many of his films ("Girl 6", "Summer of Sam", "Crooklyn", "Do The Right Thing") the female characters are more together and show more integrity and sense than the male characters.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 13:40 (twenty years ago) link

All "incidental" movie music is rubbish.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 14:33 (twenty years ago) link

oh come on, that season of "Friends" they used "Rattled by the Rush" for incidental music was pretty nice

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link

Tracer Hand: huh?

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 14:41 (twenty years ago) link

no, he's right, what good has ever come from Bernard Herrmann, John Barry, Jack Nietszche, etc., etc.?

hstencil, Tuesday, 27 May 2003 14:46 (twenty years ago) link

Lee doesn't trust silence enough--there's often soundtrack music playing when there needn't be any

This to me was a problem during the shouting-at-the-mirror scene in 25th Hour. The music came close to ruining that sequence for me.

slutsky (slutsky), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 14:48 (twenty years ago) link

Not to mention the Brooce number at the end. Scorcese gets U2, Lee gets Brooce. Coo-eee.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 May 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link

Great but imperfect flick

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 16 June 2020 19:29 (three years ago) link

Very good, honestly just glad to have him back making good movies again after so many years.

Every non-black person in this movie is a cardboard cutout, a nice inversion for a war movie and not that surprising from SL.

Brilliant use of the isolated vocal, and while all of SL's worst tendencies are present--too long, too many threads, speechifying, collages that don't work--none of the incidents are egregious.

I read Mark Kermode, "it felts bolted on"... yeah, have you seen She Hate Me? he's done so much worse. as someone said upthread, his work is more relevant than ever and I really enjoyed this, I actually wish there was more contemporary material/explicit jumps to the present.

flappy bird, Thursday, 25 June 2020 04:13 (three years ago) link

An interesting review/essay from the NY Times that I'm just gonna post in its entirety:

Vietnamese Lives, American Imperialist Views, Even in ‘Da 5 Bloods’
by Viet Thanh Nguyen

All wars are fought twice, the first time on the battlefield, the second time in memory. This is certainly true for what Americans call the “Vietnam War” and what the victorious Vietnamese call the “American War.” Both terms obscure how a war that killed more than 58,000 Americans and three million Vietnamese was also fought in Laos and Cambodia, killing hundreds of thousands more and leading directly to the Cambodian genocide.

In its own typically solipsistic, American-centered, whitewashed fashion, Hollywood has been waging this war on celluloid ever since John Wayne’s atrocious “Green Berets” in 1968, a film so nakedly propagandistic it could have been made by the Third Reich.

Born in Vietnam but made in America, I have a personal and professional interest in Hollywood’s fetish about this war. Unfortunately, I have watched almost every “Vietnam War” movie that Hollywood has made. It’s an exercise I recommend to no one.

Watching “Vietnam War” movies is my own personal “Groundhog Day” experience, because I know, without fail, how Hollywood will represent the Vietnamese and Americans. For Americans, Hollywood turns a defeat by Vietnamese people into a conflict that is actually a civil war in the American soul, where Americans’ greatest enemies are actually themselves. In one of the stranger twists in self-aggrandizement, Hollywood renders Americans as the antiheroes, which might seem odd given that Hollywood is America’s unofficial ministry of propaganda.

The reason for this troubling treatment is simple: For Hollywood, and for Americans, it is better to be the villain or antihero rather than virtuous extra, so long as one occupies center stage. For Vietnamese people, as well as Laotians, Cambodians and Hmong, their role is almost always that of the extra, their function: to be helpful, rescued, blamed, analyzed, mocked, abused, raped, killed, spoken for, spoken over, misunderstood or all of the above.

So, when Spike Lee’s new movie, “Da 5 Bloods,” was announced, my feelings were mixed. On the one hand, I am an admirer of many of Lee’s movies. On the other hand, I feared that Lee, despite being a Black American with a powerful, necessary voice, would, in the end, be an American. Could his antiracist critique overcome the investment in American imperialism that most Americans have without knowing it?

Unfortunately, the answer is no. “Da 5 Bloods” is a lesser Lee movie — honestly, it’s a mess — whose characterizations of Vietnamese people are inextricable from its political failures.

I feel almost churlish writing this, given the urgency of Black Lives Matter that Lee gestures to and given how Hollywood — and America in general — has mostly erased, ignored or distorted the history of Black people. It’s been a decades-long struggle for Black talent in film to tell Black stories with Black actors as stars and with Black writers, directors and producers behind the scenes. In this context, “Da 5 Bloods” rightfully deserves its moment as it recounts, in unique Spike Lee fashion, the experiences of some of the Black soldiers who fought in disproportionate numbers during a war whose racism cut both ways, against Black (and Brown and Indigenous) American soldiers and also against the Vietnamese (and Cambodians, Laotians and Hmong).

I stand with Black Lives Matter and against anti-Black racism, but still, as I watched the obligatory scene of Vietnamese soldiers getting shot and killed for the thousandth time, and as I felt the same hurt I did in watching “Platoon” and “Rambo” and “Full Metal Jacket,” I thought: Does it make any difference if politically conscious Black men kill us?

“Da 5 Bloods” remains a “Vietnam War” movie about fighting an American dirty war again, except that it puts Black men in the spotlight and it eliminates the worst of the anti-Asian, Yellow Peril racism that characterizes the genre. What remains, however, is evidence that while Lee means well, he also does not know what to do with the Vietnamese except resort to guilty liberal feelings about them.

As a result, the Vietnamese appear as the tour guide, the sidekick, the “whore,” the mixed-race child, the beggar and the faceless enemy, all of whom play to American desires and fears. In a particularly absurd moment, a Vietnamese gangster threatens the Black veterans as he recounts the My Lai massacre. While acknowledging the massacre of 500 Vietnamese civilians is important, it is also a clumsy exercise in American guilt that relegates the Vietnamese to victimhood, which is how Americans prefer to remember them, except when they remember them as Viet Cong.

The sense that Vietnamese people must be victims also plays out in an episode where a vendor tries to force one of the Black veterans, Paul (played by Delroy Lindo), to buy a live chicken (something that no Vietnamese I know has ever heard of). The situation escalates rapidly and the vengeful native screams at the Black veterans that they killed his mother and father.

While this might have happened, it’s extremely rare. Many American visitors to Vietnam remark in amazement that the Vietnamese have seemed to let the past go. This is true. We have no time to hate Americans because we hate each other more, given that our war was actually a civil war (plus, the Vietnamese really hate the Chinese the most). The Americans and the French, our former colonizers, are seen as walking wallets, not to be offended.

Being a victim, over and over again, besides being traumatic in real life, is really boring onscreen, and Lee understands that basing a Black story on such an experience is a losing proposition. His strategy in “Da 5 Bloods” echoes Francis Ford Coppola’s in “Apocalypse Now,” which he references often — reserve the starring role for American men who struggle with their own heart of darkness. In a brilliant performance, Lindo becomes a kind of Black Ahab, driven by demons until he meets his fate. “Da 5 Bloods” shows Black men as agents of their own destiny, capable of both heroism and horror, as we all are as human beings whose inhumanity is an inextricable part of ourselves. This complex subjectivity is what white Hollywood has mostly denied Black people, and it is what they deserve. But so do the Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians and Hmong.

Perhaps this is asking too much from a Black story, but it’s Lee himself who sets the high bar. “Da 5 Bloods” clearly aspires to be a movie that jabs at American racism and imperialist warmongering, but whereas it succeeds at the former, it fails at the latter. Why? In putting Black subjectivity at the center, Lee also continues to put American subjectivity at the center. If one can’t disentangle Black subjectivity from dominant American (white) subjectivity, it’s impossible to apply a genuine anti-imperialist critique. Hence the marginalized Vietnamese continuing to serve their role as excuses for a Black drama staged against America’s Black-white divide.

This is not an argument for more Vietnamese inclusion. It’s a demand that we recognize how decolonization and anti-imperialism are impossible if we keep reiterating the imperial country’s point of view, even from the minority perspective.

The political ambitions of Lee’s movie are clear from the two Black intellectuals he includes at the beginning and ending. The film starts with the classic anti-racist, anti-imperialist quote from Muhammad Ali about the Viet Cong: “They never called me nigger.” It’s sad, then, that Paul’s response to the chicken seller is to call the Vietnamese “Gooks.” Yes, Black soldiers used this slur, and the slur says a great deal about Paul’s traumatized internalization of racism. But Paul’s justification rings hollow when he says that if Black people can call themselves by the worst slur possible, he can use the Vietnamese slur. No. Black people can call themselves whatever they wish; that is their right. But we don’t get to call Black people a racial slur, and they don’t get to call us one either. Lee’s attempts to provide anti-racist alternatives — another Black veteran connecting with his mixed-race daughter, or a donation to a demining effort — fall under the category of liberal condescension, the rescue narrative with Black saviors instead of white ones.

But don’t listen to me. Listen to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., whose important speech “Beyond Vietnam” is quoted at the film’s end. The fact that most Americans know “I Have a Dream” but not “Beyond Vietnam” is testimony to the depth of American propaganda, the willingness of Americans to want to feel good about the American Dream and their reluctance to confront the American Nightmare. In the American Nightmare, the severity of anti-Black racism is inseparable from the endurance of American imperialism. As King said, Black Americans were sent to “guarantee liberties in Southeast Asia which they had not found in southwest Georgia and East Harlem.” He condemned not just racism, but also capitalism, militarism, American imperialism, and the American war machine, “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.” In another speech, he demanded that we question our “whole society,” which means “ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of economic exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together.”

“Vietnam,” meaning the “Vietnam War,” continues to haunt this country, which was built on war and for war. American cinema and storytelling play their role in these wars, including our current “forever war,” by reiterating, again and again, the centrality of the American male soldier’s experience, mostly in white and now in Black. Making a “Vietnam War” movie in this classic mold, except with Black men, Lee cannot overcome the imperialism that is as American as slavery and genocide. He overlooks the more radical possibility that King outlined in “Beyond Vietnam” when he called on Americans to listen to the “voiceless ones.” King meant the Vietnamese, but the “voiceless ones” are anyone the United States confronts with its massive, multicultural war machine, including, now, Iraqis and Afghans. “Here is the true meaning and value of compassion and nonviolence,” King said, “when it helps us to see the enemy’s point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves.”

King knew that the only way to save a racially divided America from itself was to have white Americans listen to Black people, and he knew the only way to save an imperial America from itself was to have Americans listen to those it normally prefers to kill and silence through massive firepower, whether ordered by the Pentagon or Hollywood. I wrote about this in my 2015 novel, “The Sympathizer,” which includes a depiction of a Hollywood “Vietnam War” spectacle that looks suspiciously like “Apocalypse Now,” but with a little tweaking — change the white guys to Black guys — could be “Da 5 Bloods.” I created a narrator who was as complex as Delroy Lindo’s Paul, who spoke back in tragedy and anguish to American racism and imperialism. The novel was rejected by 13 out of 14 editors. The one who bought it was British.

I suspect that one reason for these rejections is that for Vietnamese people, we are often only heard by Americans when we are apologetic for our existence and grateful for our rescue by Americans. It is bad manners to point out, as I have done, that we wouldn’t have needed rescuing by Americans if we hadn’t been invaded by Americans in the first place. The reality, however, is that it is up to us to tell our own stories and create our own narrative plenitude. Other Americans won’t do it for us, even those Black Americans like Lee who understand too well the pain of narrative scarcity.

But the true urgency here is not only for self-representation and the need to recognize ourselves so that others will recognize us, too. What is also crucial is the need to tell stories differently. “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house,” Audre Lorde once wrote, and indeed, a war story that repeats a purely American point of view will just help ensure that American wars continue, only with more diverse American soldiers and ever-newer targets to be killed or saved. What kind of war story sees through the other’s point of view, hears her questions, takes seriously her assessment of ourselves? Would it even be a war story? And isn’t that the story we should tell?

but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, 25 June 2020 12:48 (three years ago) link

two months pass...

I liked Da 5 Bloods maybe a shade less than Chi-raq and BlacKkKlansman, but it definitely continues Lee's impressive current streak. A few things I groaned at--a specific winky reference to The Treasure of the Sierra Madre and another to The Bridge on the River Kwai, the gazillionth use of "Time Has Come Today" in a 'Nam flick--but the cast is great (Lindo and Major especially) and I bought most of Lee's more audacious flourishes. One music-nerd bit I laughed at: two of the bloods talking about going "back to the world" as "(Don't Worry) If There's A Hell Below We're All Going To Go" plays over the scene; wrong Curtis album, I know, but I can't believe it wasn't intentional.

A White, White Gay (cryptosicko), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 21:44 (three years ago) link

Also, I just realized this was my first time seeing Chadwick Boseman in anything. An effective, and now-even-more poignant performance; I don’t know if this is technically his last film, but I’m seeing more John Cazale (who completed The Deer Hunter just before his death from cancer, if I have my facts right) parallels here.

A White, White Gay (cryptosicko), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 22:33 (three years ago) link

Wouldn't be any Spike Lee film without groans.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 22:33 (three years ago) link

this thread title sucks

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 22:46 (three years ago) link

Yup

LaRusso Auto (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 23:11 (three years ago) link

most of the "I don't know jack shit impress me" posting is on Twitter now thankfully

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 23:19 (three years ago) link

and ilm, ho ho i'll be here all night

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 00:14 (three years ago) link

heard that in Rod Stewart's voice

LaRusso Auto (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 00:28 (three years ago) link

“Da 5 Bloods” outtake of Boseman singing Marvin’s God is Love is truly beautiful - Spike put it on insta but there’s a youtube clip here:

https://youtu.be/hHHmfKmQ618

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 00:56 (three years ago) link

this thread title sucks

fervently agreed

Just a few slices of apple, Servant. Thank you. How delicious. (stevie), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 07:28 (three years ago) link

starting new threads is easy and free

sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 07:41 (three years ago) link

Well, there's also "why is japanese/french/italian cinema awful?" threads that get revived to talk about the cinema of those nations so Spike is in good company.

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 10:11 (three years ago) link

change those too

好 now 烧烤 (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 10:17 (three years ago) link

Ive always dreamt there could be some equivalent of FP for thread titles, where if enough people vote "(THIS THREAD TITLE SUCKS)" gets appended to the title

turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 13:18 (three years ago) link

every single music poll would get TTTS'd by non-ILM readers

erratic wolf angular guitarist (sic), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 20:37 (three years ago) link

the "why is such-and-such cinema awful?" threads were all intended to suck, as provocations to ensure ppl contribute and push back

this is not true of all thread titles that suck (which is most them, merely boringly)

mark s, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 20:42 (three years ago) link

I'm not really a computer guy, so I never really understood why certain things can be altered and other things (thread titles, poll choices) can't. Not questioning the truth of this--I literally don't understand.

clemenza, Thursday, 24 September 2020 00:57 (three years ago) link

thread titles are often changed, and also can be

erratic wolf angular guitarist (sic), Thursday, 24 September 2020 04:44 (three years ago) link

people get very silly about thread titles being changed, who knows why they're so bad and hated

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 24 September 2020 05:26 (three years ago) link

six months pass...

Bamboozled gets better with each viewing, to the point that I think I would now rank it very close to among his best. I still hate the cinematography, though.

edited for dog profanity (cryptosicko), Monday, 19 April 2021 18:50 (three years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.