Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

there is little incentive or will for the English FA to try to improve the game as a whole because the balance of power is massively in favour of the clubs who are only interested in the sport as a profitable spectacle - there isn't that much money in international football. or interest: i suspect like the majority of fans (probably the vast majority of fans north of the Watford Gap) i care way more about my club than i do about the vicissitudes of Lol England

is their sudden and disastrous attempts to become italians.

Thank you, thank you, thank you... Exactly what I was thinking after I posted that. I hate Italian f-ball enough already but at least they know how to play that way.

again it's cos you're the only country that plays them tbh

US soccer (at least the men's team) has its own issues in terms of technique and in terms of tactics but at least we play with great heart. Maybe it's because for many years that's pretty much all we had.

i care way more about my club than i do about the vicissitudes of Lol England

I've heard that before and wondered if it was a better reflection of English regional factionalism or just a cop-out since England haven't shone in some while. What's the RW on the FA, that Liverpool and Man U and whomever are there real favorites/bosses?

It's telling of English insularity that for years they didn't even bother to compete in the WC.

preferring club to country is fairly common in followers of association football, and has little to do with regionalism, seeing as a club's greatest rivals are generally from the same city/region.

it's not so much English insularity as the class-riddledness of the administration at the time and the FA's general historical uselessness.

Not caring much about England isn't cos they're crap I think, or not in the way you mean. It's a combo of not being particularly nationalistic (for me: I'd guess this varies a lot but in broad sweeping terms the closer to London you live the more likely you seem to be to care about England as a concept) plus the national side being full of players you spend a lot of the season hating or laughing at plus the annoyance of the public/pundits losing any sense of proportion or logic or knowledge of football when discussing England plus your club tends to be your first proper introduction to football, yr first love as it were plus yr club plays 5 times as many games in a season as the national team plus god knows what else tbh maybe that's all of it

It seems more about supporting England being totally free of consequences. So ludicrous hype, violent mood swings, burning them in effigy, etc. it's a free go at doing all that fun stuff. Y'know, why wouldn't you?

I don't know really though. I used to think it was all serious. Ex-players seem to be the only folk who really care though.

I guess that's also like Americans not being ardent supporters of our olympic basketball team or our baseball team in the world cup

I think I would be a much bigger supporter of the England national team if half of them weren't adulterers and in want to be put in jail for GBH. I have no problem with supporting players from my team's rivals or players that get heat on the field - but when they have proof that they are genuine dickheads like most of the england team, whether on the pitch or when fucking another players wife or having his boys jump a dj for not playing his song or keeping the prostitution trade afloat etc. etc.

ugh

what I find interesting and not often discussed is the decline in the english team in the last decade or so. like they haven't been consistently this shit. under hoddle they were quite good, at least they went out to argentina fighting and gave it a real lash. same at euro 96 under venables. when did the current rot set in, whereby they are just insipid and boring and shit? to my mind it was prob wc 2006, when they just limped through every game then lost to portugal. that's sort of how they've been ever since.

You missed the fact that they didn't qualify for USA 94

england didn't qualify in what, 74, 82, 86, 94 and 08 - maybe we should be looking at why they were SO GOOD in between the normal state of affairs?

lol xpost

yeah fair enough, but they were still at least able to challenge and look somewhat convincing for about a decade. why was that team better? you can't deny in, eg 1998 their exit was a massively diff thing to last year, or even in euro 2004. wc 2002 to some extent as well. people didn't feel as enraged by the exits then cos you could say they played to their potential.

i still maintain for all the talk of the players being deficient, that team is NO WAY as bad as they played in last year's wc.

I dunno man, it did have Matthew Upson and Emile Heskey in it.

they were great in 96 tbf.

Sven was the guy that installed the big tourney boredom attitude and as long as there's a player left there that was under him i've a feeling it'll remain

England almost always go out epically, at least in world cups. 02 was the exception, even 2010 was epic in its way. To be enjoyed and cherished imo, however maddening.

Again, compare to Scotland, entirely featureless since about 1978, you don't want that. Ireland make a much better fist of things.

xxp oh yeah the individuals massively underperformed no doubt

nah they went out with a whimper the last two WCs, they were walloped by germany and the portugal game was just a borefest. i agree sven can take a lot of blame for this, since 06 they've had a summer lethargy.

i think blaming sven is like blaming rafa for liv last season (yes and no)

couldn't resist watching the eng-ger highlights again under that bbc carragher article

could quite easily have been 4-3 (with england having gone 3-2 up via lampard's "goal" and his free kick which smacked the bar - closer than any german misses). would've flattered england but would've led to the game being thought of as one of their more exciting exits (that didn't involve penalties). but whatever.

the thing that always stands out is the dexterity and precision of the germans. they score from such tight angles. podolski slicing it between james legs...could easily have been blocked or swerved but no it was inch perfect and impeccably timed. same goes for klose's opener - looks like he won't reach it AND be able to poke it in but it just does. the quickness of their third and fourth goals is just as impressive.

anyway for five years now i've said "copy the germans" (not just actually winning or nearly winning or even style of play but arrangements and practices...were their players bored between games? etc.). remember how fucked germany and spain were 7 years ago. analyse their recoveries in every conceivable way. emulate them as much as possible (including the ability to not only cope without key players but adapt to an equivalent or even superior standard without them ie germany sans ballack), unless the PL obstacle really is such a problem that the germans can't be copied in enough ways for the gap to be significantly closed.

feeling more and more that the latter is the case tho. so england are stuck as SHItaly for the foreseeable. a decent performance next Summer would depend more on luck of draw and in games than anything else.

would still much prefer to exit as they did last year than on pens ever again. some sort of progress...

could quite easily have been 4-3

this is true to a point but could also quite easily have been 8-1, like honestly. germany had loads of clearcut chances.

i wonder to what extent the clubs coach flexibility out of the players, finding their optimum role and drilling it in to the point that if they're asked to do something different for England it's too much of a stretch? also the kind of football often played in the EPL is untenable in a summer competition anywhere with reasonably high temperatures/humidity? and by employing two coaches in a row from outside of the English system this gap between what the players can do well and what the England coach is asking them to do has just gotten too wide?

The 2004 European Championship was the last time they looked any good amd that was as English as they've played since then, long balls to Rooney and a lot of pace on the counter iirc.

ha sorry forgot the McLaren interregnum

Was that when Rooney broke his metatarsal, NV?

yeah, the 'could have' will kill ye, at least the average irish fan is a pessimist, it gives you a list of things to work on. The 'hard luck' attitude lets you off easy, and tbh is untrue.

I don't blame sven for the lot, but under him the attitude towards england from key players changed perceptibly imo, it became something you had earned as opposed to something to be earned.

xp

he picked up an injury early in the match against Portugal that we eventually lost on penalties (after having a perfectly legit winner disallowed? haha my memory)

can't remember what the exact injury was, I thought the metatarsal was before 2006 World Cup and the whole Theogate extravaganza

xposts to local garda

well i'm just using the two nearest misses but when you look at the stats it really was surprisingly even.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/27/england-v-germany-match-statistics

as i say germany were just a level up on precision/execution, even for them whereas lamps goal relied on a crossbar deflection and his free kick would've too.

beardsley broke so many mirrors we're still fucking paying for it basically

after having a perfectly legit winner disallowed

Looked legit to me. I believe Campbell was said to have interfered w/the keeper.

yeah i think sven was damaging just in what he epitomises, just his utter careless greed. by the time 2006 came along it was clear everyone knew he was going and the players visibly were completely lacking in motivation. i'm not sure they've recovered since then. they qualified fairly well under capello but then reverted to that woeful lack of creativity in the tournament itself. they were really similar in the way they played in 06 and 10

sven's results were fine, is the thing.

Capello was excellent up until squad selection for the tournament, which was an absolute disaster going on form.

cant remember was the goal legit or not, i think it was.

yeah i don't think anybody but the ref saw the alleged interference

but under him the attitude towards england from key players changed perceptibly imo, it became something you had earned as opposed to something to be earned.

i don't see this really, not even with beckham. i felt there were real improvements in mentality during his time but they didn't stick. something went wrong between 04 and 06 but it is hard to pinpoint what...something about attitudes between sven, the press and the fans perhaps. it had an impact on the players, as carra suggests.

It's very strange how Capello totally lost it in South Africa. The rigidity, the timidity, the woeful morale and PR - like you say, he was great up to then, and even mostly got it back afterwards. Either the whole thing's random, or there's something in the English footballer's psyche that he's read totally wrong.

'not even with beckham'

The most notable exception, actually?

the psyche was 'i'm gonna get picked whether my performance merits it or not' and unfathomably, capello reinforced it in the buildup to that tournament.

He had everything in place to tear that mentality apart and he...i dunno what he did but the players he took to that WC did not warrant it in the six months previous

the only thing i can think re Capello last Summer is he was overcautious due to inexperience at that level...which sounds ridiculous but some similarity with Sven in 02 (except he had a much tougher group draw followed by a much easier 2nd round opponent). i'm not even sure England played better in the 02 group than in the 2010 group really.

didn't england beat argentina in the group in 02?

Best eng wc performance in a game i can recall, that one. Danny mills exceptional at rb

slightly flukey penalty and holding on like crazy for 60 minutes but one of our better performances at that level true

think we might've been wobbly against Sweden? also think Heskey might have scored at some point so maybe i hallucinated the whole tournament

didn't england beat argentina in the group in 02?

Beckham pen right up the middle

worst penalty i've ever seen that actually went in! 02 game vs argentina never struck me as a particularly good performance. decent enough but really not inspiring.

for a really good england wc group game performance i think you have to go all the way back to colombia in 98.

yeah that was a perf tbf, but colombia were no arg.

Heskey scored in the 3-0 victory over Denmark, iIrc

beckham unleashed by hoddle, who's management of him throughout was a shambles

arg weren't that great either tho dmac!

frankly i'm surprised and appalled nobody here remembered it was the 25th anniversary of this last week

http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.1163688.2.flat,550x550,075,f.hand-of-god.jpg

there was a horrible Radio 5 programme about it with Butcher and three or four others talking in front of a live audience and being hilariously bitter about it still

arg 02 weren't bad iirc, it was a pressure game.