When Santana was great!

Is it my imagination, or is there a bit of influence of the Grupo de Experimentación Sonora and Leo Brouwer in one or two of the tracks on Step Forward?

I haven’t noticed it, but it’s very likely. The two things which pushed me to abandon rock as a form of expression were the Grupo de Experimentaciòn with Brouwer, Silvio Rodríguez, etc and the albums of Carlos Santana which fused Cuban elements with sixties and seventies rock. The Grupo de Experimentaciòn established a very innovative way of interpreting the Cuban music of its time. Leo Brouwer, in particular, is a Mozart of this era.--http://www.fly.co.uk/fly/archives/2005/06/juan_de_marcos_gonzalez_-_stepping_forward_and_setting_the_record_straight.html

No home is complete without a Lotus triple lp.

Enchanting and blissed-out, but not in a cheesy way. Laswell subtly intensifies the cosmicness of the original material.

The recent deluxe reissue of the first Santana album includes a second disc with the entire Woodstock live set. If you don't have the first one on CD, it is worth the extra couple of bucks to get this one. The remasters of the Santana albums sound excellent.

Sony has done this with a few other releases putting a second disc of archieve live material on Johnny Winter's Second Winter, Muddy Water's Mississippi Muddy Waters Live and Who's Next. In fact, all of the Sony reissues of the Blue Sky Muddy Waters records are doubled in length with outtakes and live tracks. All of those are worth checking out. Sony does a nice job with their reissues, other labels should take note.

Call me crazy, but I actually want to hear this:

http://www.santana.com/Content/News/SANTANA_GUITAR_HEAVEN_Cover_art1.jpg

1. Whole Lotta Love (featuring Chris Cornell)
2. Can t You Hear Me Knocking (featuring Scott Weiland)
3. Sunshine Of Your Love (featuring Rob Thomas)
4. While My Guitar Gently Weeps (featuring India.Arie & Yo-Yo Ma)
5. Dance The Night Away (featuring Pat Monahan)
6. Back In Black (featuring Nas and Janelle Monáe)
7. Riders On The Storm (featuring Chester Bennington & Ray Manzarek)
8. Smoke On The Water (featuring Jacoby Shaddix)
9. Photograph (featuring Chris Daughtry)
10. Bang A Gong (featuring Gavin Rossdale)
11. Little Wing (featuring Joe Cocker)
12. I Ain t Superstitious (featuring Jonny Lang)
13. Fortunate Son (featuring Scott Stapp)
14. Under The Bridge (featuring Andy Vargas)

When Santana wasn't great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOlInOTWl_w

Been enjoying the Laswell record a lot. Swing of Delight is pretty good as well. My Spotify mix of When Devadip was great:

http://open.spotify.com/user/124420673/playlist/0WisRpkEiY7pMKtMbNGnr0

Digging into the Carlos Santana & Buddy Miles Live! album now. It opens with an absolutely blistering version of John McLaughlin's "Marbles" (from the awesome Devotion) that features Carlos and Neil Schon doing some impressive duetting.

Onto the 25-minute "Free Form Funkafide Filth" now, which, a few minutes in, does not appear to be as noteworthy as its title.

^^^ listening to this now, for the first time in 30 years. Totally transporting me to my teenhood. I was fascinated by side-long jams as a kid, but I pretty much skipped "FFFF" even back then.

There's a great essay to be written (perhaps it has been in the liners to the LD&S reissue, which I don't have, or the Stump book which is on its way to me) on the relationship between Santana and McLaughlin. On the surface, you'd think these guys might not be compatible -- it sounds like Santana was kind of in awe of McLaughlin's technical prowess. But they shared a lot in common: a guru, a love of Coltrane, affection for each other's compositions (Santana played "Marbles" from Devotion on the Buddy Miles record and "Meditation" from LD&S is on Lotus). Here's a good quote from the Mahavishnu book:

Carlos Santana:I felt really comfortable being next to John. I looked at John as a brother who, like B.B. King or Buddy Guy, was someone that was there before me in that arena with Miles. I had loved what he had done onIn A Silent WayandBitches Brew. I was coming from the mentality of thinking that jazz was an ocean and that there were also lakes, swimming pools and bathtubs. I knew I couldn’t go to the ocean where Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Miles and Wayne hung out. That was a whole other thing for me and I respect that. But, I can hang out in the deep end of the lake! Once I got the confidence I needed, that even with John McLaughlin, I could hold my own...

I'm pretty sure there's some stuff about McLaughlin (and that whole era of Santana) in Carlos's autobiography from a couple of years ago. I remember flipping through it specifically looking for the chapters on the early '70s.

Actually, it came out last year, and was co-written with Ashley Kahn, who's done some decent jazz books.

I love LDS, some scorching guitar stuff on there. Quite transcendental in places.
There's a tour for the lp that has something like 10 shows shared which somebody talks about 1 date from somewhere earlier in the thread I think. Dates were shared on at least Dime and Trader;'s Den, I'm not sure if they're up there still but what I heard was great.
I meant to pick up the most recent remaster of the LDS cd but haven't got around to it.

I think Santana was interesting live up through 1973, possibly a little later. I do love that Bitches Brew like fusion stuff he was playing with the Lotus era band anyway.
I do also really like the Fillmore '68 set, but is it the 1st lp line up or one previous to that. Not sure where mine is at the moment.

Got to say I am pretty curious about the Santana IV record coming out next week which is a reunion of the Santana III lineup with Neal Schon, Greg Rollie, Michael Shrieve and Michael Carabello with Ronald Isley guesting on three songs on vocals.

the abraxas pool album (schon/rollie/shrive) from the 90s is terrible.

carabello's on it too

Sony put out that 2 CD version of Santana III that has a bonus live show of that version of the band and it is excellent.

man it's a hot one

I've heard a little bit of Santana IV; it's a lot slicker than they sounded in 1971, obviously, but there's some very cool instrumental stuff, too.

I gave my copy of Abraxas (think it was an original pressing) to a friend who loves Santana just recently and now I'm starting to regret it.

this is great -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8dGh1iEmCY

am curious about the new album with the original lineup.

New album is pretty good. Slicker and more commercial hard rock than previous albums by this lineup, obviously - there's one song that's blatantly trying to be another "Smooth," and it's not even one of the two that Ronald Isley sings - but there's still plenty of hot instrumental stuff in between the radio-friendly tracks.

I'm quite fond of early Santana, but to be honest I'd sooner listen to a Mandrill record.

"Jazz-rock supergroup" Mega Nova: Carlos, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Marcus Miller, Cindy Blackman Santana, apparently just for one-off at Hollywood Bowl--bet there will be an album, legit or not: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/inside-carlos-santanas-new-jazz-rock-supergroup-w434803

New album sucks

Better than Abraxas Pool, though

Honestly surprised Turrican fucks with Santana!

that supergroup has got my number

Marcus Miller would not have been my choice of bassist for that group. Better options, in order:

- Michael Henderson ('70s Miles band)
- Buster Williams (Mwandishi)
- Stanley Clarke
- Tony Levin (saw him with Santana in the late '80s)
- Bill Laswell

man marcus miller plays bass on cupid & psyche he can be in any supergroup he wants

curious what Brad thinks of "Say It Again."

i haven't before now but i feel extremely positive about the first thirty seconds

lol

Marcus Miller shreds! Fuiud

I liked him a lot with Miles, especially We Want Miles and Tutu, but would prefer someone with more of a '70s jamming mindset with Santana. I've never heard Cupid & Psyche and that's unlikely to change.

He seems fluid and versatile enough to succeed with that sound, idk. We'll see I guess.

- Michael Henderson ('70s Miles band)
- Buster Williams (Mwandishi)
- Stanley Clarke
- Tony Levin (saw him with Santana in the late '80s)
- Bill Laswell

that band has a big bottom

Just heard "Open Invitation" from Inner Secrets (https://youtu.be/cQP_05hTYWg) on Pandora--Santana biting Zep or Whitesnake or something for one of the most "1978" Rock records you can imagine.

Wasn't Inner secrets the album they recorded down the hall from Prince when he was tracking For You (and where he met Sheila E)?

"santana supergroup" just brings back bad memories of that mclaughlin thing he did in '73.

But Love Devotion Surrender is a fantastic lp with a great bunch of live sets from a supporting tour.

& it's got Larry Young onboard and everything

^^^^ otm

It's sad because I used to see him on e.g. Room 101, Never Mind on the Buzzcocks, probably other panel show type things here in the UK and always thought he was affable and quite charming as a person (unlike, say, Zappa or Rundgren or other oddball peers of his). Ah well.

Yeah, I've said this before, but he created a great character in the '60s called Alice Cooper, but it's as if ever since Alice's success he's been trying to backtrack and diminish everything Alice ever stood for.

And he's an extreme Christian and that colors EVERYTHING

He took the name from an accused witch, iirc.

xp Oh yeah. It's like a fungus.

Doesn't sarahell or somebody else have a whole thing about male bands names after women? Alice likely one of the first

thanks scott!! (as i stare down 65 which happens at the stroke of midnight.) yeah, i dunno. i think people can even say what santana said and still be good, decent, moral people. not everybody gets it at the same time. i find the kneejerk invective harder to deal with than what he said. being an old person i sort of preferred old liberalism where commonalities were emphasized. like putting down "human" for race, har har. now it's all about differences, which i'm not sure is a turn for the better. tear down the fences. maaaan.

― Thus Sang Freud

i think focusing on commonalities is good... we all have a lot in common for sure... me, i feel like i don't have that much different from a lot of the old hippies... i grew up listening to a lot of that kind of music, sometimes it's about getting together but sometimes it's about tuning in, turning on, and dropping out, about finding your own road in life... i'm 47 years old and at 43 i found that the world had changed, that what was possible for me had changed, and i took a different path in life. lost my wife, lost my home, lost my community, but i found myself... now if a hippie can't relate to that, well, i don't know what to say.

people call us names because of how we dress, the way we wear our hair... back in the day people used to make fun of the hippies, ask them "are you a boy or are you a girl?"... i feel like folks who grew up in that generation, playing the fillmore or whatever, got reason to understand what it feels like to be on the outside.

tear down the fences? sure... tear down the wall, motherfucker, like the airplane said back in the day... but a lot of kids today, they got walls blocking keeping them out, people spit on them, call them names, because they dress how they want, live how they want, and it's their trip, man, it's their trip, and i don't get being down on their trip. santana or alice cooper or whoever comes out after these trans kids, they're not tearing down any walls, they're building them.

he later said: “I am sorry for my insensitive comments. They don’t reflect that I want to honor and respect all person’s (sic) ideals and beliefs. I realize that what I said hurt people and that was not my intent. I sincerely apologize to the transgender community and everyone I offended,” his statement continued.

people are people and they make mistakes.

that's even a decent apology -- people these days tend to say i'm sorry *if* i offended you, which isn't really an apology.

you gotta change your evil ways, baby

When Santana was less bigoted!

“You read me wrong, my hating was not coming from a place of hate. Au contraire, Pierre!”

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

― Thus Sang Freud

well that's the thing, right? there are a lot of people out there who think that saying trans women are men _isn't_ hatred and bigotry, that there's this whole "transgender debate". and to me, that's where the real problem comes from...

see, most people don't know this, but trans people are facing a lot of bigotry and prejudice, it's really hard for trans folks right now. i know this because i'm trans myself, but most people don't know, and when they find out how bad it is they're pretty horrified by how bad what trans people are going through actually is. it's really frustrating, i wish there were more media outlets telling people what it's really like instead of pushing this "transgender debate" stuff.

one of the reasons i don't really have anything against santana for saying what he said is because i don't think he even knew that what he said was bigoted and hateful. i mean when people say bigoted and hateful things they're still responsible for the consequences of that, like people thinking they're haters and bigots, but to me, the problem isn't santana saying bigoted things, it's people not even _knowing_ that saying stuff like that is not just bigoted and hateful.

it's pretty frustrating... i've been seeing this go on for years and years now, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. and on top of that the people who really hate us - and there aren't that many of them, really - they say the same stuff as the people who just don't know. which sucks because most people asking those questions, they _don't_ know, but it's hard, sometimes, to not fall into that invective, because we've all heard those questions asked so many times by people who are just pretending, who are just looking for an excuse to hurt us.

it's not your fault if you don't know, but at the same time, you need to know what's going on here, everyone needs to know what's really going on here, for our sake and yours.

you're very forgiving and I'm not sure how the problem has now become people being too mean/hasty/judgmental towards the santanas of this world but I don't like it at all

how is being this christian about it really working right now?

i'm forgiving because i can be... it's a form of privilege i have. you're not in a position to do that... other people may expect you to be forgiving but i don't think that's a fair burden to put on you. i wrote a long thing in the roisin murphy thread that kind of goes into how i look at things... doesn't mean i'm right or anything, just how i look at things. your take carries just as much weight as mine imo.

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

the main reason I'm doubtful is that I've seen the nicest people ever turn the other cheek towards their abusers over and over and it looks more like a survival strategy (not necessarily a healthy or successful or sustainable one) than a luxury to me

and given as you noted how much of a generational marker this has become in britain the dynamics of familial abuse are central to this movement and how it operates

Alice Cooper and the assholes from Aerosmith have been open about being Republicans for many years. They’re really in the same camp as Ted Nugent

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

― your original display name is still visible (Left)

i don't have to post in as kind and conciliatory manner as i have tried to do in responding to thus sang froid! i made a conscious decision to do so. i'm in a position to assume good faith! that's where the privilege comes in. in the uk, quite honestly, i don't think i could do that. in the uk, i think that the most effective means y'all have to oppose entrenched transphobia is through radical direct action, stuff that draws from things like Zaps, ACT UP, that part of queer history.

for most of my life, for decades, my life was about survival. that's the most important thing, being trans, you have to survive, you have to keep yourself safe, by any means necessary. that's still the situation for most trans people today. that's another way the privilege manifests itself. transphobia affects all of us, is a threat to all of us, but it doesn't present an imminent threat to me. i can focus on other things.

i do _need_ allies, we all _need_ allies, and i guess not having to seek out allies is a privilege i don't have, but goddamn, i like the work. i really fucking enjoy doing it. i wish i could do this kind of thing full time, do outreach full time, instead of running these stupid useless reports at the bullshit job i'm paid to do. i fucking love this. i love talking to other people about my life, about my experiences. my career goal is to one day get to be gay for pay.

wait. what. there's another meaning to that term?

as far as being "christian", i consider this to be a very serious allegation. :) in my defense i would like to point out that immediately upon waking up yesterday, i posted "hail satan. baphomet is goals." to ilx... i would like to give you my personal assurance that i have not been born again since that time!

having to choose between satan and jesus is just another cis imposition as far as i'm concerned

more seriously thank you forever for being you and doing what you do - in this bubble it can be too easy to forget that being trans is actually possible in practice and having living examples to the contrary is so so important right now

awwww, my pleasure... seriously, that i am a positive role model to so many people just by, like, existing has been consistently pretty mind-blowing and awesome.