If you are saying the first, then I wish you would reveal your line of reasoning for reaching this conclusion. I would find it interesting. If it is the second, then I agree with you, because you are stating the blindingly obvious.
As for saying that my assumptions are "dubious", all you are saying is that it is possible to doubt them. Sure it is. The whole subject is confined to the realm of speculation and everyone's speculations about it could be fairly called "dubious".
But, whatever your point was, I think you missed my point by a good country mile, which was that, even using somewhat persmissive assumptions and granting the existance of somewhat numerous advanced technological societies among the millions of galaxies, there are powerful reasons to conclude they have not solved the profound obstacles inherent in coming to earth for a visit and they never will.
If your position is even more restrictive than mine in terms of granting the existance of such societies, then you should be even quicker to reach the same conclusion -- although you didn't say what you conclude on the alien visitation question.
― Aimless, Saturday, 30 August 2003 20:32 (twenty years ago) link
As my previous post probably implied, since we don't know (to name just a few major factors) how common solid planets are, we don't know how life evolved, we don't know too much about what mind and intelligence are, nor how likely it is that any creatures might evolve same in any given period, we don't know how old the universe is, we don't know that the speed of light is an absolute limit, and we certainly don't know how expensive wormholes might be (where did that nonsense come from in your thinking?) it would be mad to try to speculate on the odds of intelligent life existing and dropping in here.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 30 August 2003 22:20 (twenty years ago) link
(sorry for swearing)
― jaunbersin (anthonee), Saturday, 30 August 2003 22:52 (twenty years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 30 August 2003 23:37 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Saturday, 30 August 2003 23:38 (twenty years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 30 August 2003 23:40 (twenty years ago) link
If you know that my speculations are "nonsense", please share that knowledge. If you really have no idea what degree of validity my speculations possess in relation to the truth, even if only by sheerest accident, then I would appreciate a clear acknowledgment that your own judgement in this matter is based, like mine, largely on ignorance. I submit that, logically, if we are equally ignorant, and neither of us pretends that our opinions are based on anything but assumptions and speculations, then our opinions are equally valid, if only because there is no earthly way to decide which of our opinions is more invalid than the other.
I would further point out that my speculations about life elsewhere do not reflect any judgement on you or your abilities. On the other hand, your comments do reflect a judgement on me. Because I identified my speculations and assumptions as speculations and assumptions, I think pointing out that are inexact and unfactual is no basis for calling them "shoddy", unless you can do better.
If, as you maintain, "it would be mad to try to speculate on the odds of intelligent life existing", then I would point out that you have thereby consigned a very large number of people, including a large number of respectable scientists, to the madhouse, for what I would characterize as a harmless intellectual exercise. You might want to rethink that position.
― Aimless, Sunday, 31 August 2003 01:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Sunday, 31 August 2003 01:54 (twenty years ago) link
I definitely would NOT rule out life on other planets....
― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 31 August 2003 02:11 (twenty years ago) link
Rather than claiming that lots of scientists do this, show me one example of a respected scientist saying something so foolish, or give me some account of how you get to these numbers.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 31 August 2003 09:44 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Sunday, 31 August 2003 10:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Respected Scientist (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 13:11 (twenty years ago) link
You ask me to name a scientist saying something 'as foolish' as what I've said. The very construction of your request renders it useless as a way of furthering the conversation. However, I can easily offer you proof that reputable scientists do speculate on the presence of life elsewhere in the universe. As it happens that NASA has already scheduled a couple of probes to Mars, the major purpose of which is to gather information regarding the possible presence of life on that planet in the distant past. The SETI project wouldn't exist without such speculation.
Scientists speculate, sometimes wildly. They couldn't do really good, creative science without speculating. That doesn't mean they stop there. But that is where science starts, because no one ever looks for evidence of something they never thought about before.
I suspect that what bothers you most about my original post is that I used numbers inexactly, for the purpose of illustrating the gist of an idea rather than for precision and measurement, and that this offended your mathematical sensibilities. If it seems to you that this was a perversion of the use of number, then I plead guilty. Again. But your inability to grant any legitimacy on my side and your repeated insults really suck.
― Aimless, Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:59 (twenty years ago) link
aimless: there is definitely life elsewhere.
martin: you can't say 'definitely'.
aimless: you're saying there definitely isn't?
martin: no, I won't say definitely and neither should you.
aimless: be clearer.
?
― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:05 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:09 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:47 (twenty years ago) link
I definitely believe there is life elsewhere in the universe. I base this belief on what I consider to be strong reasoning, rather than arbitrary whim. For example: Life is based in chemistry and physics. Those operate everywhere and 'everywhere' takes in a lot of territory. Because, in my experience, similar forces applied to similar materials generally give similar results, I conclude it is far more reasonable to believe life arose elsewhere than to believe the earth is as unlike the rest of the universe as chalk from cheese.
Furthermore, Darwinism addresses what happens to life once it arises: given enough time, life speciates according to known laws. The earth is over four billion years old. We know that was long enough to evolve humans and for humans to generate high technology. Again, based on the fundamental scientific idea that the laws of the universe operate everywhere alike, I believe the laws described by Darwinism are laws, and therefore apply to life wherever it exists.
Clearly, there is nothing in the laws of life that requires human-like life to evolve. However, I believe there is time enough and space enough in the universe that the traits of intelligence and sociability would combine in some species elsewhere. Again, this seems more reasonable than to believe that life on earth has thrown out an anomaly so freakishly strange as to set humanity apart from every other life form in the entire universe.
But I am careful to characterize my reasoning as a chain of inference. A chain of inference begins in a certainty, but each successive link in the chain carries one further and further from certainty and into the unknown. I don't pretend otherwise. I cannot say that any other planet "definitely" has life, still less that any other planet "definitely" has a high tech society. But when I compare the chain that leads to this conclusion with that which concludes human life is utterly unique, not just in detail, but in kind, among the millions of galaxies, then I choose the first chain as the stronger.
It is only at the point where the chain of inference leads to the conclusion that other high tech societies from other planets have conquered the problems of intergalactic travel and have visited the earth that I find this conclusion more improbable than its counterpart.
Others can agree or disagree with my conclusions, but I would at least appreciate it for my position to be understood before it is dismissed. I know that understanding can take several iterations and clarifications, but dammit, it also takes some effort and goodwill on both sides. Just repeating "that's nothing but a chain of inference, so it is foolish nonsense" gets us nowhere, as does mischaracterizing what I said as "definitely".
― Aimless, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:13 (twenty years ago) link
I am apparently thought of on here, I'm told, as affable and easy going and pleasant. This might make it more surprising when I say that I'm finding you to be very annoying and very dim and I have no desire to talk to you any further.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link
I cannot help but think that you have done some thinking on this subject. It seems a pity that as a result of your annoyance with me we shall not know what your thinking is. I have done my best to address the objections you had to my arguments. If, in the end, your primary objections are to my personality, then there is little to be done about that.
― Aimless, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:50 (twenty years ago) link
obviously I thought it was otherwise I wouldn't have posted it but it is funny because I didn't even really read the posts either of you had made.
― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link
"Every time a major impact occurs on Europa, a vast quantity of water is splashed from the ocean into the space around Jupiter. Some of the water evaporates, and some condenses into snow. Creatures living in the water far enough from the impact have a chance of being splashed into space and quickly freeze-dried. Therefore, an easy way to look for evidence of life in Europa's ocean is to look for freeze-dried fish in the ring of space debris orbiting Jupiter.
Sending a spacecraft to visit and survey Jupiter's ring would be far less expensive than sending a submarine to visit and survey Europa's ocean. Even if we did not find freeze-dried fish in Jupiter's ring, we might find other surprises- freeze-dried seaweed, or a freeze-dried sea monster."
― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 22 October 2004 21:41 (nineteen years ago) link
I think it's funny cos when you see the Earth from space, one of the only things that hints at life is the amount of green on our planet, and that's even if we're looking close enough...
And sitcom broadcasts of course..
― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Friday, 22 October 2004 22:45 (nineteen years ago) link
But no where near as cool!!!
― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 22 October 2004 23:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 23 October 2004 16:52 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 23 October 2004 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 23 October 2004 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 17:52 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mr. obvious (latebloomer), Saturday, 23 October 2004 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― lysander spooner, Saturday, 23 October 2004 19:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― d.arraghmac, Saturday, 23 October 2004 21:45 (nineteen years ago) link
The First Men On Mercury
- We come in peace from the third planet.Would you take us to your leader?
- Bawr stretter! Bawr. Bawr. Stretterhawl?
- This is a little plastic modelof the solar system, with working parts.You are here and we are there and weare now here with you, is this clear?
- Gawl horrop. Bawr. Abawrhannahanna!
- Where we come from is blue and whitewith brown, you see we call the brownhere 'land', the blue is 'sea', and the whiteis 'clouds' over land and sea, we liveon the surface of the brown land,all round is sea and clouds. We are 'men'.Men come -
- Glawp men! Gawrbenner menko. Menhawl?
- Men come in peace from the third planetwhich we call 'earth'. We are earthmen.Take us earthmen to your leader.
- Thmen? Thmen? Bawr. Bawrhossop.Yuleeda tan hanna. Harrabost yuleeda.
- I am the yuleeda. You see my hands,we carry no benner, we come in peace.The spaceways are all stretterhawn.
- Glawn peacemen all horrabhanna tantko!Tan come at'mstrossop. Glawp yuleeda!
- Atoms are peacegawl in our harraban.Menbat worrabost from tan hannahanna.
- You men we know bawrhossoptant. Bawr.We know yuleeda. Go strawg backspetter quick.
- We cantantabawr, tantingko backspetter now!
- Banghapper now! Yes, third planet back.Yuleeda will go back blue, white, brownnowhanna! There is no more talk.
- Gawl han fasthapper?
- No. You must go back to your planet.Go back in peace, take what you have gainedbut quickly.
- Stretterworra gawl, gawl...
- Of course, but nothing is ever the same,now is it? You'll remember Mercury.
Edwin Morgan~1973
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 24 October 2004 12:52 (nineteen years ago) link
http://www.starchild-uk.com/
― lysander spooner, Friday, 29 October 2004 01:26 (nineteen years ago) link
After rediscovering this thread and reading Martin Skidmore's responses to me over again (several times), I still think I addressed all his stated objections, as directly as I knew how, and I still find his inability or unwillingness to make plain why he thought my posts were nonsensical to be both sullen and obstinate.
Of all the exchanges I've had on ILX, this one mystifies me perhaps more than any other, since Martin was not usually one to act like this.
― Aimless, Sunday, 28 March 2010 20:31 (fourteen years ago) link
dude was obv one of "them"
― A capella key change in "Hold On" by Wilson Phillips (Pillbox), Sunday, 28 March 2010 20:52 (fourteen years ago) link
(x-post)
I wouldn't take it personally - he had a couple of thread mini-meltdowns when battling pretty severe depression.
― Bob Six, Sunday, 28 March 2010 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link
obviously there's life on other planets tho duh.
you watching 'wonders of the solar system' then?
― Jermaine Jenason (darraghmac), Sunday, 28 March 2010 22:04 (fourteen years ago) link
Greatest thing I've ever read, maybe
― Half lies and gorilla dust (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 29 March 2010 06:01 (fourteen years ago) link
Don't talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking
Hawking’s logic on aliens is, for him, unusually simple. The universe, he points out, has 100 billion galaxies, each containing hundreds of millions of stars. In such a big place, Earth is unlikely to be the only planet where life has evolved.“To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational,” he said. “The real challenge is to work out what aliens might actually be like.”
― Bob Six, Sunday, 25 April 2010 08:38 (thirteen years ago) link
"I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonise whatever planets they can reach."
tell us more, oh bad science fiction plot recycler visionary scientist
― the big pink suede panda bear hurts (ledge), Sunday, 25 April 2010 08:45 (thirteen years ago) link
Some scientist usually comes out with this "Don't talk to aliens 'cause they may come and enslave us and eat our pets and stuff!" every twenty years or so. They always figure that the aliens would have human psycology and human drives.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Sunday, 25 April 2010 09:31 (thirteen years ago) link
Aliens will have human drives:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/1066563_1eceff58e7.jpg
― StanM, Sunday, 25 April 2010 09:39 (thirteen years ago) link
damn. the word I was thinking of was rides, wasn't it? :-/
― StanM, Sunday, 25 April 2010 09:40 (thirteen years ago) link
No, they'll be driving much better cars than that. They'll be taking over the world, remember?
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Sunday, 25 April 2010 09:48 (thirteen years ago) link
Barney over across the hall in the Chromatography lab is offering 3-1 against the proposition that there are intelligent beings living under the surface of Pluto and I for one am not going to turn down such easy money― Respected Scientist (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:11 AM (6 years ago)
― Respected Scientist (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:11 AM (6 years ago)
― Blecch Generation (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 25 April 2010 13:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Belgian tabloid headline about this: HAWKING SAYS ALIENS EXIST
― StanM, Sunday, 25 April 2010 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link
We've been missing the obvious all along.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/pg-alien.jpg
― Jack Human (kenan), Monday, 26 April 2010 08:30 (thirteen years ago) link
the alien isn't inside, the car, THE ALIEN IS THE CAR
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/Alien%20queen%20car%20russia-thumb-520x506.jpg
― the big pink suede panda bear hurts (ledge), Monday, 26 April 2010 13:12 (thirteen years ago) link
I think we've found out what was really going on in My Mother, The Car: an alien was possessing Jerry (mumble mumble, forgot his last name)'s car and using the voice of his dead mother to lull him into a false sense of security in hopes that he'd later help it take over the world.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Monday, 26 April 2010 15:27 (thirteen years ago) link
omg! Transformers is real, people. xpost
― StanM, Monday, 26 April 2010 16:04 (thirteen years ago) link
LOL: http://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/12903192862
― StanM, Monday, 26 April 2010 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link
I wish aliens came over here and just annihilated our entire planet right now.
we have already started iirc
― Head goes goes goes (Schlafsack), Sunday, 6 March 2011 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.mentalfloss.com/store/images/D/pluto.jpg
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 6 March 2011 21:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Hello.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=habitable-planet-gj-667cc
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 2 February 2012 18:45 (twelve years ago) link
I was going to suggest that this is Lou Reed's "new planetary system", but unfortunately according to Vogt "It's pretty deficient in metals" .
― quad octets or death! (snoball), Thursday, 2 February 2012 18:52 (twelve years ago) link
The low metallicity (seen in the parent stars absorption spectra) means the parent star is a population II star formed rather early in the galaxy's existence. If there's enough silicon & iron for a planet 4.5 times Earth's size to accrete, there's likely enough carbon for organic chemistry (and life).
The problem with habitable zones around red dwarfs like Gliese 667c is that they're so near the star that the planets are liable to be tidally locked with one face permanently facing the star (like Mercury and the Gallilean moons of Jupiter in our own system). Gliese 667cC has an orbit of 0.28 AU (26 million miles), so that may not be a problem.
To the OP, I'm largely in agreement with Stephen Webb in Where Is Everybody? and Peter Ward in Rare Earth: Why Complex Life Is Uncommon in the Universe. The universe is probably teeming with bacteria-like life, but complexity and intelligence are exceedingly rare.
― Sanpaku, Thursday, 2 February 2012 19:15 (twelve years ago) link
Keep asking for a Pluto:Revolve in Peace t-shirt from the Hall of Science but haven't received one yet, guess I'll have to get it for myself.
Interested to read those books Sanpaku mentions.
Seeing this thread on new answers immediately made me think of Martin S.
― I Can Only Give You Every Zing (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 2 February 2012 19:20 (twelve years ago) link
Of course I have met many of them and they all think Earth sucks.
― The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Thursday, 2 February 2012 20:05 (twelve years ago) link
Earth: the toilet venue of the galaxy
― quad octets or death! (snoball), Thursday, 2 February 2012 20:06 (twelve years ago) link
They don't like all the wrappers and litter about.
― The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Friday, 3 February 2012 15:51 (twelve years ago) link
aJacques Vallée
bthat lawrence poem upthread is pretty good
― dell (del), Saturday, 4 February 2012 14:47 (twelve years ago) link
there is no life anywhere else in the universe & there is no way a colony of humans could survive a trip to any other potentially habitable planet
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Thursday, 8 May 2014 16:40 (nine years ago) link
whew glad that's settled
― stadow shevens (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 8 May 2014 16:43 (nine years ago) link
I would actually feel glad if this was the case
― DDD, Thursday, 8 May 2014 16:52 (nine years ago) link
Consciousness downloaded into nanobots and bodies 3D printed at the other end, how about that?
― めんどくさい (Matt #2), Thursday, 8 May 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link
Burroughs thought of it first
― stadow shevens (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 8 May 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link
also, there is no way santa claus could possibly visit all of those houses in one night
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 8 May 2014 17:35 (nine years ago) link
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-exploration-venus/potential-sign-of-alien-life-detected-on-inhospitable-venus-idUSKBN2652GO
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Monday, 14 September 2020 21:38 (three years ago) link
Remember this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55071058
Its twin has just been deployed in Romania:
https://adevarul.ro/locale/piatra-neamt/un-misterios-monolit-metal-similar-gasit-recent-sua-descoperit-cetate-dacica-romania-1_5fc1178c5163ec42714d36bf/index.html
(Sorry, I couldn’t find an English equivalent but it includes photos and a video embed.)
― pomenitul, Friday, 27 November 2020 20:31 (three years ago) link
oh god david surber is totally one of these cumstains who reads every craig childs fart in existence. going to be about 500 more douchebags in utvs on the lockhart basin road next spring.
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Friday, 27 November 2020 20:40 (three years ago) link
That Aimless/Martin Skidmore dialogue really cracks me up for some reason - a shame to have missed the golden age of early ilx.
― Luna Schlosser, Friday, 27 November 2020 21:15 (three years ago) link
love that there was a poster named "sb" in 2003. very prescient
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Friday, 27 November 2020 21:53 (three years ago) link
Yeah that was good xpostWeird thinking about the dates on those.This one made me smile:DJ MartianPosted: 3 October 2001 at 01:00:00Yes, there is life on Mars.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 27 November 2020 23:15 (three years ago) link
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-55212336
― pomenitul, Monday, 7 December 2020 15:21 (three years ago) link
DJ Rob da Bank, another island resident, was also among those who took a stroll to see the sight for themselves.He mused: "I'm not sure if it's aliens, a Coldplay PR stunt or a local mirror dealer drumming up trade, but it got us all down the beach anyway."
He mused: "I'm not sure if it's aliens, a Coldplay PR stunt or a local mirror dealer drumming up trade, but it got us all down the beach anyway."
Otm. There's one here some 20 miles away now too, btw. I'm still guessing Coldplay PR stunt.
― A Scampo Darkly (Le Bateau Ivre), Monday, 7 December 2020 19:25 (three years ago) link