frank kogan needs to know the diff between a pub and a bar

I can prove none of this, and I'll be interested if someone can give me counter-examples.

Both.

a bar is bright and horribly clean. Has some sort of weird modern name.

a pub is old and smells of beer. Has a trad sounding name.

I prefer pubs, but then I only ever go to pubs when it is a FAP.

Sometimes pubs become bars after "refurbishment". I was in a bar last night which had previously been a Firkin. Whether Firkins are pubs or not; the new reincarnation of the place is *definitely* a bar.

"let's call our pub the hackney!"
"why would that attract anyone? ppl who live here already know which pubs they want to go to, and ppl who don't are surely by defn not attracted to being in places with the name 'hackney' — or they WOULD live here"
"i know — the name isn't there to attract a clientele, bcz it's a pub and that's not what pub names do!!"
"aha i get it: the hackney it is"

bars usually have the obligatory australian/irish/student barman and they do not sell 4 pint carryouts.

- and don't get me started on giant fuckin jenga players..!

Have you invented a time machine? Can I come?

"wasn't this place called [xxx] last week?" = it is a bar

but then of course the grey area is way bigger than decided area, which is no good to frank bcz not a good guide to how we use the words deep into the grey area, as we clearly do

I was serious about my cider on draught thing. I don't think he can go far wrong with that criterion. Soon he will learn the difference at first sight. Go on, give me counterexamples to the cider rule that don't come from the disputed chain pub/bar area.

cider on draught is an interesting criterion bcz it clearly CAN'T be judged prior to arrival (ie it as an element of "content" rather than "packaging") => i deem it epiphenomenal but only by hunchwork

("content" vs "packaging" is hardly a cast-iron opposition of course, since the ppl attracted by the packaging of an establishment swiftly go on to make up its content)

In a bar, I can ask for a white Russian or some vodka/cranberry combo and get what I've asked for. In a pub, they will have to ask me how to make one or I will take one look around and see that there is no way it's gonna happen so choose something else (the amount of times I have had to tell some pub-ning how to build the perfect Bloody Mary...arrgh).

Also pub staff ask you if you want ice in your drink if it involves shorts and barstaff don't, it's part of the service.

AB1, S&L, P&P are all PUBS albeit 'feminised' pubs. I hate them ALL.

* Unless it's a whisky or brandy.

to me, pubs = where i buy pints (at least early in the evening - once drunk this can go out the window), bars = where i buy bottles of wine or cocktails. admittedly there are exceptions (although the only one springing to mind is the embassy bar, where i tend to buy pints but wd def say it is a bar).

Can anyone tell me why bar staff insist on putting a slice of lemon into every short I order with a coke or lemonade mixer? This is prevalent in both pubs and bars.

Still, generally, studenty bars excluded, bars have fewer pumps. They will *never* have more than four beers on tap, whereas a pub that didn't have at least six would be a poor pub indeed.

Like you say, though, if I see a lot of draught pumps I do think I'm in a pub. And generally speaking, Tavern Snacks are not available in bars.

As to the American = higher standards generally expected of bar staff, I disagree in my case as I have lived here for more than a decade. I remember when all I could drink from a pub was vodka and Britvic orange and going to buy cranberry juice for £4.50 in Fortnum's to give everyone in my flat sea breezes. Things have gotten much better here but there's no real tipping culture to bribe bartenders into making you a stiffer drink.

pubs and bars are both cool when they are doing what they are supposed to do. anything in the middle is ugh

like, early in the night, you want PUB. it should be local, it should have old people in, you should ddrink beer, the carpet should be stained and dirty. there should be geezers. there should be plenty seating room to spread out in. there should be no music.

assuming there is goign to be no club the bar comes later, the bar has got to be the complete opposite. there should be music, it should be dark and neon, hopefully there should be some sort of robot, electroclash airheads with asymetric fringes should be snorting coke in the toilets, juan maclean records should be playing, there must be beautiful people.

no inbetweens ok

they shouldnt be played, not in a bar, not anywhere

Key difference for me is defined by their answer to this question: "Can I have a pint of bitter please?"

former can be defined by capacity i guess.

latter by spending potential, i suppose.

you can put a number to both, as your definition, and those near the threshold number are medium sized, which are neither big or small, and then the further from that number the bigger or smaller a club they are.

you can do that to define whether a piece of string is long or short, too. using some form of average (e.g. median) value of all pieces of strings in the world.

http://www.fancyapint.com/main_site/thepubs/pub2178.html

Errrrmmm... *studied*? I don't think so.

i dont often think about the outside. in that photo, it looks like birmingham 1975

which is preferred - bar or table?

This is partly because it's not a "watch the football" pub, it just has a couple of screens which show (apparently) random sporting events. I really like it in there, haven't been in for ages.

Gabbneb are you calling some kind of FAP or did you decide not to?

(I'd be well up (?) for a FAP if persons wanted to go to the trouble, but don't really know my schedule yet. I think I'm going to be free on a sat night (the 25), and perhaps the tuesday or wednesday of that week, but need to hear back from a friend and make some decisions first. I may or may not be going to a quiz night on the Sunday. Don't know where and I'm guessing it's not music-related.)

Foundry remains stubbornly undesignatable for me - scuzzy - check, lots on draft - check, wouldn't order a white russian - check; yet the suspended bondage dolls and narrow demographic. I would just call it a "student pub" and be done with it except it's not right next to any school and everyone in there is about 30.

they fail to mention that its probably one of the cheapest bars in the area, which for me is a great incentive. for that i am uninterested in their opinions on this point.

i may also.....gotocamden

Where is this pub/bar exactly? ;-)