Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Another thought - Amy, ganger Doctor and Cleaves all melted with a click of the sonic. They didn't melt in the usual way, as the eyes went first. So perhaps we haven't seen the last of the Flesh Doctor after all?

It was Jetsan, not Jetsam, if that helps the anagrams? (I think)

More anagram speculation. There's another alien race, one who has access to clone tech, in Morpeth Jetsan. Of course, there are four letters left that don't make obvious sense - jeep. It probably means nuffink.
Amy whisked away in the children's home surely? There was a clear continuity "error" where she had considerably more scores on her face between scenes.

I was going to say that it's pretty obvious when Amy was taken: it's when she was taken in the programme and only her communication chip left behind. However, doesn't she see the strange woman in the hatch before that happens? Which would indicate that she was already ganger-Amy. Hmmm.

I think the Bacon might be the closest I'm going to get with the painting. I'm beginning to think it only exists in my head.

Sontarthm?

Amy whisked away in the children's home surely? There was a clear continuity "error" where she had considerably more scores on her face between scenes.

nah, that was meant to mean she had been in there for ages, repeatedly seeing the roofhangers and then forgetting. She spots eyepatch lady just before going into that room too, iirc?

However, when the Silence snatched her just after that scene, they may have been after her artifical-tech-ness for some reason, as there certainly seemed to be no reason to kidnap and hold her as it was.

x-post, dare say we both rc then

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oGBXhSJDCZ8/TceUBDoDBrI/AAAAAAAAIkw/gOLt6IdhIQo/s1600/jabberwock.jpg

I was getting Jabberwocky from the final version of Jen's ganger.

Naturally, I disagree that the 'Classic' series (as the BBC now calls it) takes more time to grasp what's going on thatn the modern series - a four-parter is only 100 minutes (less if you skip the credits) and because it doesn't have any of the story arc stuff it feels more coherent. My list, therefore, isn't much changed from the last time it was asked:

Hartnell: The Daleks. Where it all begins for them, but sets up the Dalek mentality very well. The Time Meddler. WTF there are other Time Lords?

Troughton: The War Games. Very long, but has a lot on Gallifreyan process. Probably not as essential - Troughton is the Doctor worst hit by losses and apart from a couple of cracking Cyber-stories (Tomb of the Cybermen and The Invasion) doesn't really add anything to the history you're looking for.

Pertwee: The Sea Devils. This (and the as-yet unreleased The Daemons) are probably the best two Delgado-era Master stories and this has many people's favourite parts in it, plus a seriously fucked up score. Planet of the Spiders. Pertwee's swansong and an attempt to bring Zen philosophy into Time Lord history, of which there is a fair bit it seems. The Three Doctors is very heavy on Time Lord history but is maybe a bit slow for new viewers.

Tom Baker: Genesis of the Daleks. Where Davros begins. Most fans think it's at least an episode too long but ymmv. The Deadly Assassin. More Time Lord stuff, and a direct rip from The Manchurian Candidate. Was really heavily condemned at the time for violence and contains several scenes that have absolutely stayed with me since first seeing them. City of Death. I love it, it's Tom having some of the most fun he ever did in the part, it has scintillating dialogue and I still think the Jaggeroth ship has something to do with Moffatt's thinking.

Davison: Mawdryn Undead. Exactly the sort of timey-wimey stuff that Moffatt does. Bits of the plot raise their head every year as rumours. I'd stick around for the rest of the Black Guardian trilogy afterwards (Terminus and Enlightenment). The Five Doctors. Like it or loathe it, this is real comfort-Who for me. One of the stories I'm most likely to put on if I don't know what to watch. LOTS of Time Lord history.

Much as I like Colin Baker, there's not much fits your brief and I can't with good conscience recommend you watch all of Trial of a Time Lord. And much as I dislike McCoy there's nothing there in your brief except EVERYTHING after Dragonfire (i.e. when Ace starts and The Cartmel Masterplan kicks into overdrive). Start with Remembrance of the Daleks and see how you get on.

I've missed out some absolute classic material to tailor to what you wanted to see (history etc).

key ep's of essential previous docs

This is definitely tricky - when I first went back to them, I started out with the first and last story from each regeneration but that's still quite a mission. If I was going to try to pick one story for each doctor with the aim of covering major recurring baddies I guess I'd go for something like:

Hartnell - The Dalek Invasion of Earth

Troughton - Tomb of the Cybermen

Pertwee - The Sea Devils (you get the master in here too)

Baker T - Genesis of the Daleks AND The Deadly Assassin (he was around a long time, he deserves two stories)

Davison - This is the hardest to choose! Maybe Earthshock, Or Mawdryn Undead? Or even The Five Doctors.

Baker C - This'll do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT4ztbVlimU

McCoy - Remembrance of the Daleks, I guess.

It's hard to make this less dalek-heavy.

(ha, xp!)

Funnily enough I watched The 5 Doctors the other night, and while it was decent fun once it got going, I'd hardly say it was uber-classic. Real shame Tom Baker got "stuck in the time vortex" (ie, he wasn't available, so they used some unused footage for his introductory scenes) and didn't get to chew the scenery alongside the other Doctors. The companions were underused too. I did enjoy the mathematical puzzle booby trap they had to get past though. It's something that's in Pyramid of Mars too, which is an absolute corker, although it doesn't really add anything to the overall mythos.
For McCoy, it's gotta be Curse of Fenric. I've yet to see the recut version, but I think it's terrific, and gives a sense of the Doctor's darker, more ruthless side that Moffat is starting to explore.
City of Death, absolutely. Co-written by Douglas Adams under a pseudonym.

This was pretty confusing but I liked the twist at the end. I'd guess that Amy was taken at some point in the very first ep of the season but no idea why. The Doctor wasn't killing a sentient being, it was the real Amy in a different body, an avatar as explained upthread.

Being pregnant in a tube with a creepy eyepatch lady with weird lipstick – the idea of it creeps me the fuck out!

yeah that was up there with this show's darkest shit

BBC radio4 extra is running old who as radio plays at the moment and it works pretty well. However we are going through a period with Tegan who has to be one of the Doctor's whinier assitants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011d8b8

They're not old episodes, they're Big Finish productions - they're made as audio plays, but they're mostly (these days) made with the original casts.

eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cradle_of_the_Snake

Just w/r/t when Amy gets taken, I wouldn't be surprised to find that a later episode is the one that belongs between 1 & 2, as none of the elements of suspense at the end of 1 were resolved at the beginning of 2.

there have been so many throwaway clues. rory remembering being an auton in another universe: "memories are like a door..."

i know the Doctors switched shoes but it had to have been when they both were fiddling about with the consoles in the evac tower right?

So right after real (but pretending to be fake) doctor goes berserk at Amy...

RealDoc: "Did you sense it?"
GangerDoc: "Briefly but not as strongly as you."

^^I'm assuming they're both referring to Amy's real memories, and not the Flesh, in which case, why would Real Doctor feel it strongly? shouldn't it be the other way round because Ganger Doc was the one with the psychic link to Ganger Amy right? confusing but nvm.

I like how the "Why?"s could be referring to not just to the Flesh asking why they were destroyed but to the question of why Amy was taken, why the baby, and so many other whys. Jesus this show.

Naturally, I disagree that the 'Classic' series (as the BBC now calls it) takes more time to grasp what's going on thatn the modern series

except that your list of "~10 episodes" comes out to SIXTY EPISODES and a recommendation to watch another TWENTY-FOUR consecutive eps afterwards!

B-b-but they're only 24 minutes each! That's not bad for 40 years.

Speaking as a Who noob, I think that The War Games is great just for the last episode, with all its expressionist set designs and overall WEIRD vibe. But yeah, the overall length does make the preceding NINE episodes seem kind of inessential.

The Three Doctors is very heavy on Time Lord history but is maybe a bit slow for new viewers.

LOVED The Three Doctors! Easily my favorite of the classic era that I've seen, not slow at all (esp. compared to a whole bunch of the erst).

Genesis of the Daleks is grim as hell. As an aside, pre-knowledge of Time Lord history doesn't seem that important to understand the current series, does it? There are nice in-jokes to be gotten, I suppose, but maybe I'm just missing everything because I don't know? SPOILER HEREIN: E.g. when Davros shows up in the new era, I don't think I needed to know the ins and outs of the whole Kaled backstory to get the animus between him and the Doctor, it's fairly straightforward antagonist stuff. END SPOILER.

I think I'm the only one here or in the world who doesn't like City of Death.

Oh and I thought that the Jen-monster looked a lot like the invisible monster in the Van Gogh episode.

Incidentally, should I watch Spearhead from Space before I watch Planet of the Spiders?

Yes.

My suggestions:

1st - the first episode of the first serial (avoid the rest of it); The Daleks, but I'm not that familiar with a lot of 1st doc
2nd - The Mind Robber, totally tripped-out fun in the Land of Fiction; War Games, I guess?
3rd - The Daemons has the classic Master, UNIT shenanigans, lots of fun; Invasion of the Dinosaurs, if you don't mind some really terrible dinosaurs, is surprisingly complicated and has Sarah Jane
4th - Deadly Assassin is great for both entertainment and mythology creation; Warriors Gate is about as experimental as the show ever got, and it's fantastic; Robots of Death is kind of my go-to for introducing people to the show, though in a way it might be too good.
5th - I actually haven't really seen any of the mythology ones, Kinda's pretty cool though, and The Caves of Androzani is great, but it's his last episode
6th - I dunno.
7th - lots of options, Remembrance of the Daleks has more mythology stuff, Curse of Fenric has great ambition and lots of manipulation

I know you said one from each Doctor but I ignored you so

#1
The Daleks (because it's right near the start and sooo much is being formed at that point)
The Sensorites (because it's great and quite creepy)

#2
Tomb of the Cybermen (because it's fantastic, and because these particular proto-Cybermen are really wonderful)
The War Games (has everything and is buckets of fun despite its length; first real appearance of Time Lord councils if you care about that rubbish; Troughton is particularly great; the villain is the spit of middle-era George Michael; also regen)

#3
Inferno (because straight after this the Master was revealed as the omg unexpected surprise villian in EVERY SINGLE STORY for like three years)
Planet of the Spiders (SARAH JANE; also Pertwee is more relaxed in these later ones imo; also regen)

#4
The Ark in Space (just really really entertaining)
Genesis of the Daleks (again, highly entertaining, and this particular Davros is super-creepy)
Key to Time (fuck it, it's what 26 episodes or something, watch the whole thing (but maybe skip the Stonehenge one))

#5
Black Orchid (concise; devoid of space-opera rubbish; even 'er indoors likes it)
The Five Doctors (it's crap but come on, FIVE Doctors (all right, technically three) AND Anthony Ainley)

#6
Trial of a Time Lord 1–4, aka The Mysterious Planet (Baker's theatrical presence in the first five minutes simultaneously demonstrates why he was a brilliant stage actor and completely unsuited to low-budget television)
Trial of a Time Lord 13–14, aka The Ultimate Foe (how to conclude a major series-length story when the original writer dies and his estate won't allow anyone near the script)

#7
Time and the Rani (it's really, really, really hilarious for all the wrong reasons (imagine if Tommy Wiseau were a Kylie fan))
Remembrance of the Daleks (the best you could hope for around this time; also the ideal opporunity to witness McCoy's ~angry~ acting; also ACE)
Ghost Light (very dense and complex script (you will probably have to watch it three times); relies heavily upon Cartmel's mega-arc that never got to flourish on screen)

#8
The Movie (it's shithouse but you sort of have to, also McGann's Doctor is excellent as demonstrated by the five billion-odd books that came out of it)

The Daleks
The Sensorites
Tomb of the Cybermen
The War Games
Inferno
Planet of the Spiders
The Ark in Space
Genesis of the Daleks
Key to Time
Black Orchid
The Five Doctors
Trial of a Time Lord 1–4
Trial of a Time Lord 13–14
Time and the Rani
Remembrance of the Daleks
Ghost Light
The telemovie pilot

Dude I’m pretty sure he asked for “~10” because he wanted to maybe have a look at, ooh, about ten episodes, without getting too deep into mythology and continuity, just to see what it’s like and maybe enrich his current experience. A list of ONE HUNDRED AND TWO EPISODES, many of which you are specifically recommending because they are shit, is not a casual primer for a new fan!
(Counting the McGann as three eps, there.)

Dear balls – as a lifelong Who nerd who has an enormous hand-knitted multicoloured scarf and had made two major school projects about the show before my own balls dropped, I can assure you that you can start watching at the beginning of Matt Smith’s run and be missing absolutely nothing at all that you need to follow or enjoy the show.

(If you do actually want whole-story recommendations for old-school Doctors though, I’ll flex against AA/aldo with gleeful detail!)

PS Leee: yes, do watch Spearhead first – it’s one of the best new-Doctor whole stories ever, and the best-looking colour Who EVAR (due to being shot entirely on film, not down to snazzy production design or anything)

Dude I’m pretty sure he asked for “~10” because he wanted to maybe have a look at, ooh, about ten episodes

Dude I'm pretty sure I started my post with "I know you said one from each Doctor but I ignored you so"

PS Leee: yes, do watch Spearhead first – it’s one of the best new-Doctor whole stories ever, and the best-looking colour Who EVAR

That first Pertwee series is so good -- opens with Spearhead, closes with the amazing Inferno, and has The Silurians (a bit too long but really interesting) and The Ambassadors of Death (a bit too long but super-creepy and tense) in between

^OTMing this in theory though I've only seen Spearhead in full in the last >20 years

I started my post with "I know you said one from each Doctor but I ignored you so"

he didn't even say that so I ignored you saying that he said that

well, now at least you know what old-school doctor who fans are like.

ha ha!

NEVER ask a DW fan to summarise 48 years in 4.5 hrs imo

...when DEATH is on the line!

responses very useful thx!

From the Hartnell era, apart from An Unearthly Child (the very first/pilot episode), I would go for The Aztecs myself. I suppose The Daleks is a lot more iconic, but the story in The Aztecs is just so good.

Avoid Colin Baker. That is all.

Is this where I casually stroll into the room and tell you to listen to this instead of any watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-e_TCqb4qQ
and run away again before the old-schoolers get cross?

(ok ok, fair warning: it is 9 minutes of former Radiophonic Workshop people talking about the theme tune, with no reference to the contents of the show itself, so don't listen if you don't want that - if the words "tape splice" make you yawn then you probably don't want to click on it)

Try and get hold of Alchemists of Sound (the full version, not the cut down one in The Beginning box set) for full-on radiophonic goodness.

A thought: The Doctor still has some Flesh in the TARDIS in the form of his shoes.

^holy shit

<3 you spacecadet.

Maybe his shoes liquefied when he zapped FleshPond.

good point, like FleshDoctor (and FleshCleaves) liquifying when he zapped Jen.

Bet they didn't.

Some really interesting speculation and theorising breaking out elsewhere on exactly when Amy got replaced.

Yeah, basically people are speculating everything from 'in the first episode of the fifth series' all the way up to 'White House toilets'.

No doubt backed up with "highly compelling" video "evidence", like the hilarious clips showing Amy "seeing" the Silence in the last series.

This is where "ming-mongs" becomes an apt term, yes?

woman with eyepatch is so creepy, reminds me of creepy future-prison warden woman in 'Brazil'

speaking of daleks, this is cool
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/gallery1988sf/Olly/IMG_1530.jpg

whoa! is that on etsy or some shit?

from here! http://ollymosspapercuts.blogspot.com/

so is part of the daleks thing that they look like ridiculous impotent Lost in Space robots but happen to be genocidal psychopaths, or is that just incidental bc when they were invented that was the standard for making your robot-villain creature?

They were definitely supposed to be scary-looking when first designed.

I don't really get why the two Gangers had to sacrifice themselves. They were standing there jawing for ages with the open Tardis right next to them. Really good episode though, especially the double doctor interaction. Matt Smith just keeps getting better, he has eclipsed Tennant pretty comprehensively.