the nascent appeal of managerial competency

the other big one of the last few years, slightly off topic, is "we are in a good moment"

caught ray wilkins trying to get away with it on sky sports one night "they're in a good moment"

That's a definite Ancelotti thing, just a verbal tic. Glenn Hoddle favoured 'situation'. Think Vialli had one as well.

'In a good moment' pops up in the English of various native Italian, Spanish and Portugese speakers, there must be an equivalent across all those languages.

yeah, that's been pointed out before. Mourinho def used it on occasion, big jack too

How does the search function work on dis ting? Trying to find the first appearance of "in a good moment" on ILX just gives me a load of Ronan's posts from 2001 talking about Thing X being 'good at the moment'.

shudder

capello loves "in a good moment" too...

I will admit that I am still entirely in the dark as to how football mgmt works in Europe after seeing countless mgrs hired amidst fanfare and then fired 6 or 12 or 20 months later after few signings and little time to build a team or adapt a built team to a new style of play (or both).

I think we all just saw Mou's week point; his antics may have given him some cover but flipping out over bad calls isn't exactly an example of the sang-froid of a great leader.

I wouldn't laugh too much at 'good moments'; I believe they definitely exist, if only in the minds (and self-belief) of an organization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG16jv-itYw

This is the earliest I can find:

It's wrong to mock non-native speakers of English for their mistakes, but the expression "he's in a good moment" (to describe a player on a good run of form) is starting to get on my nerves.

I just worry that it's only a matter of time before it rubs off on the English lads and you get, say, Joe Cole saying Yeah, Didier's in a good moment, ya know.

― Daniel Giraffe, Monday, February 8, 2010 10:28 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark

Not ILX, but the earliest dateline that appeared in a quick Google search was a Jose Reyes interview from 2005. He was using it correctly though, because he really was only good for a moment.

It definitely feels latinate to me.

xps, whole lotta wrong in here probably:

In Europe I think 'managers' are more head coaches who work within an entrenched management structure. They manage the players and to some extent give direction to how the team plays at the time, but they don't really do strategy insofar as controlling signings, youth development, financial things, etc.

In Britain, though, the system at least until very recently seems to have been almost totally arbitrary - the manager comes in as an autocrat and has immediate full control over everything, but without much structure other than what he brings in himself. Meaning that he's basically a charismatic autocrat, and the only way to tell how well he's doing is by results which are to a fairly large extent down to form or chance. Which seems a bit ludicrous but never really gets questioned.

The notable exceptions are where:

• the club has made an effort to build a structure with the manager being more the face of that collective than an autocrat (Liverpool from Shankly to Dalglish I, arguably Chelsea since Hoddle, possibly Arsenal depending on what exactly Wenger's done there)
• particularly strong individuals have managed to entrench themselves and an actual culture appears to establish itself from them (Busby, Revie, Clough, Ferguson?) but depends so much on their charisma that it doesn't survive long afterwards.

Charisma's probably the most important factor for any manager, provided you allow a fairly broad definition of that word. Especially for outsider types who don't have the aura of a legendary playing career surrounding them, I think. No amount of tactical genius will compensate for lack of belief on the players' part.

If Wenger were at a richer club, would he have more silverware?

How have Fergie's signings done on account? I always think of him as a savvy tactical buyer but I know there have been some duds, and some disappointments.

Was Greece's Euro win a tactical or charismatic win?

Mostly the former, probably? Afaict the players Rehhagel had suggested the style he employed, he didn't come in with a rep as an "anti-football" manager and have to corral a bunch of creative attacking players with big egos into a preplanned formation. But it's hard enough to figure out what club managers are up to, even harder with international sides.

I mean, we can't deny that there was a lot of 'good moment' and a lot of luck in that win but it's since been derided as the 'anti-football' yet as you say, he didn't exactly have a wealth of exciting attacking options.

Yes, and that probably meant that getting his players to carry out negative tactics much easier - they knew they were suited to them. Whereas if Mourinho can get next year's Real Madrid team, which scored 102 league goals this season, to continue to play in a reactionary style against Barcelona (and win this time), it'll be largely a product of his personality/man management abilities.

I think Ferguson and United's utter dominance of the Premiership era has let to a load of entrenched received wisdom about "the right way" to manage a football club vs all others but Fergie kinda got lucky being the best team at the right time and having the right kids at the same time and his reputation has lived off that for a long time.

Real were utter shit during the first leg at home. They looked like they were either cowed (hard to believe), had lost Jose's script, or had started to believe in Barca and not in themselves.

That come-back against Bayern wasn't 'having' the right kids was it, Matt? Solskjær was practically unknown before signing and Sheringham was brought in 'cause Cantona had left and it showed the kind of grit that Ferguson insisted on.

That's true but I'm not really talking about winning Champions Leagues, I'm talking about building a philosophy of how to successfully manage in England. And in England there are only two - Ferguson and Wenger, and the shine has come off the latter a bit.

His annoying moments of cecity aside, I don't think Wenger's all that different than he was 'at his peak'. I think that with the influx of foreign money and players and managers (of which he was a def harbinger), the league is much more competitive and his relative spending money compared to other clubs is down. Also van Injury etc... The draw against Newcastle was a disgrace, though, so maybe he deserves some of his present lack of lustre.

He's not really made signings of the quality of Vieira/Anelka/Henry over the last few years though. A concurrent decline in French football might also have something to do with it.

Winning the Cup Winners' Cup with Aberdeen answers any charges that good fortune played a part with Ferguson. He'd've been an amazing success anywhere. That generation of great kids was an absolute freak, but without them he'd just've won things a different way (see e.g. this season).

xpost re: Wenger - As has been pointed out many times, heseems to be trying to protect his legacy by moving the goalposts - defining the club's success in terms of achievement given certain limitations, mainly the youth of his teams and the relatively low transfer expenditure (balanced by a high wage bill), but also the stylishness of the football they play.

Maybe Wenger's less comfortable judging talent from outside Ligue 1, which could help account for the sizeable gap between the France-sourced invincibles and the likes of Rosicky, Hleb, Arshavin. I still think his current French gambles (Nasri, Koscielny, Chamakh) could end up being successes. And Eduardo was just bad luck.

Wenger's best three signings didn't come from Ligue 1.

One thing I don't get about the Fergie legacy is the fact that he won so much with a well developed youth team doesn't seem to be taken into account. It is all in the cult of Fergie personality and although lauded players like Beckham, Scholes and Giggs obviously grew up living and breathing the Utd way, it is rarely spoken of as an important quality. (Maybe because the two best players to play under Ferguson were Schmiechal and Ronaldo, leading people to not focus so hard on it.)

although lauded players like Beckham, Scholes and Giggs obviously grew up living and breathing the Utd way, it is rarely spoken of as an important quality.

Uh, it's spoken about all the time

cantona, for a start.

yeah cantona surely the key signing, more so than ronaldo certainly.

Still baffling why Leeds let him go to their main rivals. It's impossible to imagine an equivalent transfer happening today.

Supposedly Fergie asked Houillier if Cantona was as much as a headcase as was rumoured at the time and Ged told him that the stories from France were exaggerated and that cantona hadn't been treated that well by the federation and that he'd been fine for Fergie. Thanks Ged.

Top ten key signings in order, something like this imo:

Cantona
Keane
Schmeichel
Ronaldo
Vidic
Ferdinand
Van Nistelrooy
Stam
Rooney
Sheringham

Crikey, they've signed a lot of top players in the last twenty years.

I might put Yorke and Ince in there as well. Yorke was incredible for a couple of seasons. Oh and Andy Cole.

Solskjaer?

Evra, Hernandez, re-signing Hughes, it just goes on & on.

Wenger's best three signings didn't come from Ligue 1.

Bergkamp didn't, but it's fair to say that Vieira and Henry did. Their Serie A performances aren't what made Wenger buy them.

It's appropriate that this conversation took a Ferguson/United tribute detour - something to cheer them up when they read it. They did play a great first half.

Did wenger even sign bergkamp? Thought that was Rioch.

correct

i suppose of the recent french hypes, he got nasri, missed menez, gourcuff couldn't really be accomodated alongside fabregas, and benzema was out of his price range after a few months in lyon's first team

lloris, sakho, m'vila, sissoko are probably all feasible if he's prepared to cough up

fyi i meant ljungberg, henry and cesc

ljungberg was a great signing alright, but could you put him ahead of vieira?

vieira wasnt technically a wenger signing - he came before him.

did not know that

Wasn't signing Viera and Garde part of Wenger's conditions for taking the job?

Not conditions - he recommended them to Dein while discussing signing.

an ffs give them to him

How does the search function work on dis ting? Trying to find the first appearance of "in a good moment" on ILX just gives me a load of Ronan's posts from 2001 talking about Thing X being 'good at the moment'.

― Ismael Klata, Friday, 27 May 2011 16:12 (3 months ago)

steaua bucharest manager ronny levi says 'we are now not in a good moment' on romanian stream of porto/benfica