ABBA: Classic Or Dud?

But I hate ABBA fans - theys the rats knackers !

I'm not ashamed to admit that the first album I ever willingly went out to purchase (ie. not the kiddie albums with yer abc's and such) was Waterloo, by ABBA, when I was all of 5, and that I religiously followed them until the end. I picked up each new relase on vinyl as it came out, and always cheered when one of the new singles cracked the Top 10. Sure it was cloying and sweet pop on the surface, but if you go back and re-listen to some of it, it was clear that something else was going on under the surface. From about Arrival on until the end, they were masters at fusing ripping guitar with popmusik and emerging unscathed. (I'd even argue that they started this even earlier, on songs like "Mamma Mia" and "SOS", but it's not so noticeable. And I shouldn't even have to mention that the title track from "The Visitors" was one of the most bent songs ever to be released into the mainstream by a supposedly "sickly sweet pop band": it was brilliantly claustrophobic both lyrically and musically, and the music was more reminiscent of stuff happening on the edges, like Gary Numan almost. The other thing that struck me about ABBA releases at the time: the construction of the album packages was always top- notch, with a glossy and thick sleeve both inside and out...no cheapo paper slipcovers for the vinyl. I realize I was young, but at the time it felt almost like art.

As I mentioned above, the cult of Abba I can do without. There came a point where it became kitsch to like them, and while I don't disagree that most of the fans today no longer listen to it for that reason, the association of kitsch lingers on thanks to films like "Muriel's Wedding" and the stage production of "Mamma Mia". Many people who like to think that they have good taste in music therefore view it as a red flag, and either hide their ABBA collection or say something like, "aahhh, they were gifts" or some other self-deluding thing. I admit that I'm like that, and that while I own a CD copy of The Visitors, I can't bring myself to buy copies of their earlier albums even when I find them in the used bin for cheap...though I really am tempted...just because of fear of losing face in the eyes of the salesclerks. Is that sad or what?

anyway, when did people start unabashedly liking them again?

is it hard to like spacemen 3? it is bandied about like an attribute on one's resume here.

Nah. I mentioned liking them because I know they are one of Kate's favorite bands, so they were sort of relevant to the discussion at hand. Not meant to be some sort of name dropping exercise at all, because that would be pretty sad...

it should be on my tombstone.

"Hi, I'm Kate, and I like Spacemen3".

This entire thread was an exercise in futility. You all had your ideas about Abba, and your ideas about people that hate Abba, and I was just there to provide the foil for your gushing. Everybody is satisfied.

Around 1980, it had become a disgrace to listen to them, so I stopped doing it. Later, I rediscovered them "in the closet", but I kept having the feeling that it was some sort of excentric vice that I should be ashamed of. I had no idea that so many people felt the same as I did.

I'm proud that their value has been so widely recognized in the 1990's, so I don't have to be embarassed anymore about liking them. I'm proud also because it proves to me that, from the beginning, my ear was right. I have listened to many many other artists since then, in all possible styles, but Abba remains a reference to me, just like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Elvis. Their sound is just as unmistakeable, and their production has been just about as creative and diverse.

More than other musicians, Abba have been a victim of their image, maybe because of their gaggy outfits. They were and are still labeled as kitsch by many people, including their own fans. Many of those who declare hating them don't really know their music, and don't bother to.

There were quite a few bands and artists of the 70's that really were dud, but the difference is that those never enjoyed this sort of late recognition. Anyone remembers the Rubettes or the Brotherhood of Man for instance? They were successful though back then...

I don't agree either that Abba's music is plastic and devoid of emotions. That applies maybe to bands like the Bee Gees or Boney M., which are OK in their own style, but which I think do lack depth. On the opposite, an album like "the Visitors" is full of emotion and refinement. Emotion is not just about being "upbeat".

I can very well understand that, for a number of reasons, some people don't like their sound. It probably goes for most artists.; everyone doesn't like the Rolling Stones either, but no doubt that they are classics. But , whether one likes them or not, what I would like to underline is Abba's artistical value. They are by no means just a good old kitschy attraction. They are indeed two outstanding composers, and two outstanding voices.

And yes, they do sound better when you're in an office.

Anyway...never heard any of the alb. and the singles only on the radio. Didn't like them when I was younger but 'Murriel's Wedding' is a wonderful movie and I love how this girl finds so much comfort in this music. I do tend to join in, singing along to those songs when played in the movie (as my brother pointed it out to me!).

The singles are wonderful though I never got round to getting a collection as it really isn't needed.

I love it.

I don't love it. Dud.

As if that 'Can you hear the drums Fernando?' thing and the 'I Have A Dream' thing and the 'I Believe In Angels' dreck were not enough, someone further up the thread has reminded me of 'Thankyou For The Music' - AAAaaaarrrghgh.

I had to hear their drivel all through my teens, and working as a barman in a handbag- dancer nightclub during the last days of disco meant hearing all those 'classic' singles over and over again...
But even if I'd never heard them before in my life, I would find them absolutely bloody dire - it's not just 'connections' stuff.
The songs are just so..... so..... ersatz.
They sound like things written for theatrical musicals about war, or like they've been commissioned for coachloads of pensioners to sing along to. I don't think I've ever heard a single note in any of their melodies that sounded like it couldn't have been statistically predicted. Their production/sound is so chintzy and schmaltzy and faux-classy, it's like being beaten to fucking death with a fool's-gold-plated wedding cake stand.

Kate, you are not alone - it just generally feels like it because they also seem to infect taste like some kind of lowest-common-denominator cultural virus : even Noise/Industrial music fans I know have Abba collections.

And I do think that all that rusty irony shit can't just be discounted either.

Oh, and RF - now that was a seriously enjoyable post...

The melodies - Money Money Money does sound like a show tune (intentionally, I would guess), but I don't see what you mean about the predictability of the melodies. There are some incredible twists and turns - I'd say that as writers and arrangers Benny and Bjorn are up there with the best ever.

Now Alex. What about this : **In my first dancing lesson we danced to Rasputin**

Well you'd have looked a proper charlie dancing to After The Bloody Goldrush, wouldn't you? Or Nick Drake? What's wrong with Boney M - 'Daddy Cool' has a fucking enormous bass-line - great record to dance to. Also Ma Baker. I used to dance to Boney M, Abba, Heatwave, The Supremes, The Specials, The Jam, The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees within the same hour in 1978. And I still do given half the chance. This is turning into a rant now. I'm angry. Please don't take it personally Alex - I would buy you a dunkelsbier any day and even dance with you - but your musical world is nonsense. Abba are crap because of overexposure! In one or two years ALL MUSIC WAS LIKE IT!! WHAT! Soul music is crap because of falsetto vocals! Oh no!

Roger - you joyless, clueless fuckwit. I bet you're the po-faced, sneering, slightly smelly person in the corner with the Jim Morrison t-shirt. Aren't you?

And as for the Jim Morisson T-shirt, I prefer a Brownshirt with jackboots.

I'm not a musician or musicologist so I can't comment on the predictability of melodies thing - except to say that if that was the case then why haven't there been more groups like ABBA? Predictability implies that making ABBA records must be easy but the list of other bands who've enjoyed anything remotely approaching their level of success with a similar sound is very small. Part of that was the fact that they appeared and flourished at a time when the singles charts were possibly less concerned with 'cool' than any other, so the show-tunes influence (for example) and the Swedishness didn't ring any cultural alarm bells.

I think ABBA's lyrics show flashes of greatness all the way through and from about '77-'78 onward are consistently marvellous.

I'm a bit surprised at myself for how much I love them and how my love for them continues to grow - they still seem to me the most perfect group, despite inconsistencies of output.

I mean I say this as someone who likes a silly dance song or ten but, I don't know I'll never like Abba. Also I probably have subconscious prejudices about the 12 cd people who like them being fantastically happy and going to see Bjorn Again 3 times a year and living wonderful lives.

Great stuff while the initial buzz was still there but occasional radio/disco listening is as much ABBA as I need. So not quite classic because like the bunny in the Duracell ad they've run out of power while the best of Chic, EWF, Motown etc still motors on.

Yay! You know you've finally arrived on ILM when someone says you're talking bullshit!
What's that 'for the most part' mean, though, eh Dr C ?
And the answer to your question is 'No' - because:
(1) Indie feedback scenarios do nothing for me.
(2) Don't worry, I too lost such childish 'rockist' (tm ILM) notions as 'more real' >20 years ago - it's just that I've never felt convinced that it was for the better. I acknowledge it's a lot more complicated than 'real' vs. 'fake', but you have to decide whether you're willing to lose the dimensions of dialogue that the belittling of such ideas, however crassly expressed, leads to. Aren't there areas of aesthetics which allow for the validity of these criteria? Or do you think that pop music should by definition be exempt?
(3) I wasn't referring to the idea of Abba as 'fake' vs. Some Indie Noise as 'real' - I was trying to get across (perhaps badly) that they and their sound and their songs have to me a kind of representational efficiency <=> ideas/emotions/themes which is the audio equivalent of a fake tan. I'm not saying that I think all music 'should' have these affective/cognitive functions either, nor even that music which is popular and melodic and shiny necessarily has only 'ersatz' qualities (I find the Pet Shop Boys 'Rent' for example, to be quite a lucid musical/lyrical encapsulation of a complex set of feelings as well as a lovely wee tune with a sophisticated depth of production) - but I am saying that the idea of finding 'emotion' in Abba's songs (by which we don't usually just mean -'hey, this sounds like fun!') makes me think 'WTF?', in much the same way as imagining those for whom 'Lady In Red' is a rilly good love song...

As for 'laughable' - yes such an attitude may well be so by our sophisticated standards. Or maybe it wouldn't be so much a laugh, as a snigger.

I used to dance to Boney M, Abba, Heatwave, The Supremes, The Specials, The Jam, The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees within the same hour in 1978. And I still do given half the chance

Bet you get a bit more out of breath now though haha
And just where the hell were you going in 1978 that played all this? I was stuck with either Saturday Night CattleMarket 'Discos', or Saturday Night Fuckwit 'Punk/New Wave Discos'..... but then I didn't want to dance to either...

As for your final point, I would refer you to the post by Andrew L:
I do hate the assumption that if you don't like ABBA (or their cohorts in evil, the Beatles) you're somehow anti-pop, anti-dance, anti-fun, whatever. You really don't have to be a musical elitist/purist to find ABBA cloying and annoying.

(Office Card: No - but it HELPS!! hahaha)

Tom - I can't back that melody thing up with any musicological analysis myself, cos I don't speak tadpole. It's just that I've never heard any sequence by them which sounded 'unexpected', there's never any sense of suspension/resolution in them - its just like one damn note after another...
I think you have a good point about 'why not more Abba's if they were that predictable', I need to think about that a bit more, but maybe:
Well maybe there have been lots more 'Abbas' - ref. Kate earlier.
Time and place, like you said.
The issue of being 'the original' group of that type.
The stuff mentioned by dleone in his post.

I think this thread is great - the degree of polarisation it produced dug out all the criteria which people use to evaluate music, many of which are themselves the subject of dispute as to applicability - eg craft & skill, art vs. industry, functionalism, personal/social context, who else likes it, etc.
I think that all kinds of things are relevant because they are made so by the surrounding culture - awkward, but everything counts. That's why its all so fucking personal and emotive and difficult and interesting.

To discos, nightclubs and people's houses.

**I think this thread is great - the degree of polarisation it produced dug out all the criteria which people use to evaluate music**

**eg craft & skill, art vs. industry, functionalism, personal/social context, who else likes it, etc**

Do you know what? I don't know why I love Abba. I don't know why I love ABC, The Human League, Joy Division, The Kinks, Chic....

I know *what it is that they do* that I like, but I don't know why I like what they do, at least in a way that I can sensibly analyse and articulate.

The polarisation around ABBA IS astounding, though. Ronan thinks it's too bubblegum, I think they're rather bleak. At least the later stuff is.

Alex - you didn't make me angry. Sorry if you thought that.

Bleak Bubblegum -- chew it and feel your spirit wither. (A cousin to Chunks of Sadness, Robert Smith's favorite chocky.)

There's a definite bit of nostalgia for loving Abba on my part in that, born in '71 and all, theirs was some of the first pop music I heard and recognized as such on the radio. "Dancing Queen" and "Voulez-Vouz" and all give me a basic rush and a fix, much like snoozerific hash such as "Escape (The Pina Colada Song)" also does -- but the latter just sounds like snoozerific hash, but ABBA still sounds perfectly sparkling and wonderful.

I think it's odd ABBA haven't got a younger audience among people who are into music, but on the other hand I think the number of those people who go back and investigate older pop music is generally quite low (the people talking on the Four Tops threads have been older than the ILM average I'd guess).

Also, bump.

The delights of ABBA are many..... from the perfect pop of hits like 'S.O.S', 'Knowing me Knowing You' and 'Take a chance on me' to the beautifully written, darker moments like 'The day before you came' (one of the greatest songs ever written), 'The Winner takes it all' (ditto) and 'The Visitors'.

It's a shame they're remembered more for their appalling campy dress sense than their incredible music talents - Andersson/Ulvaeus are easily up there with Lennon and McCartney for their staggering songwriting talents - moreso, in fact, in my humble opinion.

To even question Classic/Dud with ABBA is terrible. ABBA changed the face of music, and their legacy lives on.

Absolutely classic.

I read it at the time, and ‘boring’ is indeed my lasting memory of it

CMP sort of redeeming himself here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcnrL02FG8t/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I drunkenly theorised at the weekend that every ABBA song is secretly a short psychological horror story and I'd like to test it out with you all. Suggestions and examples welcome

There are some pretty obvious ones: Lay All Your Love On Me where someone's jealous streak becomes so terrifyingly inflated that it develops a dead-eyed numinous zombie-like religiosity

Dancing Queen. No matter who you are, YOU are the dancing queen. Against your will, you have been reduced to the object of the singer's cruel desire. This is a scene Thomas Ligotti would be proud of

One Of Us is crying. Who? Which of you? How many of you are in this smiling cabal with a single secretive cryer? One of us is lying, the other always tells the truth. I'm scared

Like An Angel Passing Through My Room. Sleep paralysis. Wonderful

Does Your Mother Know... what you did last Summer?

Haha I love this. "The Day Before You Came" if you buy the interpretation that the "You" is a guy who murders the protagonist.

My daughter was just in Mamma Mia, and as I watched I did wonder how malleable the ABBA catalog could be. Like, the musical is the most obvious, easy, literal adaptation, but a more creative mind could have gone truly nuts with the material.

People everywhere
A sense of expectation hangin' in the air
Givin' out a spark
Across the room, your eyes are glowin' in the dark

I don't know what's going on here but fuckin ell mate

Lovers Live A Little Longer - in which it turns that the protagonist is actually talking to the preserved corpse of her kidnap

E.T.A. Hoffman's "Nina, Pretty Ballerina"

Death Camp On and On and On ("people care for nothing, no respect for human rights")

The city is a nightmare, a horrible dream
Some of us will dream it forever
Look around the corner, and try not to scream
It's me

Ooh nice

Summer Night City is about a vampire that sleeps in the day and preys on people coming home from nightclubs and discos

Some folks only see the litter
We don't miss them when they're gone

That's a Paul Tremblay line if I ever heard one

I'm Carrie, not the kind of girl you'd marry,
That's me.

And I'm going to use telekinesis to take revenge on all of you after the prom.

Super Trouper – having been chased down by the authorities, the narrator is undergoing an interrogation so intense that she begins hallucinating that she is on a stage somewhere performing for her adoring fans, searching for her partner in the audience to rescue her. Alas he’s already dead. And by the end so is she.

Dum Dum Diddle – about a murderous stalker who imagines transforming into the violin of a musician she intends to kill.

These are gold. ABBA gold

(xp) Didn't Argento film that one?

“Elaine” is another great example

Someone needs to isolate the vocals on those tracks, slow them down and douse them with a ton of reverb so we can hear what the trailer will sound like.