Is Bob Dylan overrated?

anyone with a career like that surely has to phone it in sometimes.

(x-post)

Self-Portrait might be the most underrated album of all time.

And I agree with Tab. Dylan as fundamentalist spitfire preacher is definitely underrated. That phase of his might be the most dramatic remove from an established image anyone's ever accomplished. It's interesting how Neil Young did his schizo albums right after, which maybe's another example of Dylan's huge sway over everybody else.

This is bad why?

NOT overrated -- and go ahead and strike up another vote for Self Portrait.

Yeah buddy. I've seen him several times over the past 17 years (first in '87, most recently in '02), and the most recent show was the best hands down. His singing was so sharp and (OK, in its own way) *rich*. But the "mystic signifier" thing is true, I guess, because I think loving Dylan's singing vs. appreciating him as a songwriter or "important influence" or whatever is kind of the dividing line on really digging him or not.

I wouldn't call it that. I just think his delivery is really funny! He has a great sense of comedic timing (even when he's being serious) and almost everything he sings is pregnant with some kind of... I don't wanna say "meaning," it's more like "presence of mind." Like you know he wrote the line to be sung a certain way and the fun of getting to sing it justifies the labor of writing it.

I mean, I'd put him with Sinatra and Ella and Billie and ... not many others, maybe Elvis? Bing? Howlin' Wolf? Hank Williams? ... as great American singers of the recorded era.

But then, that's the kind of statement that makes people say he's overrated. Can't win.

And this is important because so many "clever" singer-songwriters have no idea how to emote comedically and their jokes just don't translate well to being sung.

Idiot Wind: Listening to Bob Dylan

Bob Dylan turned 60 this week, and there's been a predictable wave of tributes and analysis and retrospectives and so forth. But I couldn't help noticing that, except for some puzzled mentions, nobody really talked about one of Dylan's most important contributions to American music: his singing.

I understand why, of course. That reedy, nasal, jarring voice, part sneer and part howl, has always been the dividing line between people who "get" Dylan and people who don't, between those who will allow that "he's written some really good songs" and those who consider him one of the greatest artists of the past century. And so it often goes unexplored and unexplained, either tolerated or venerated but not much examined.

So what is it with his singing? What is he up to? What's it all about?

Well, I've been listening to him for years, and I'm still trying to get a handle on it. When I was a kid, Dylan was the one major element of my dad's record collection that I resisted. I loved the Beatles; I sang along with Simon and Garfunkel; I jumped around my bedroom to The Who; I listened with a sense of daring and danger to the Rolling Stones, who seemed steeped in dark and mysterious adult things. But Dylan? He looked weird. More to the point, he sounded weird. "He can't sing," I would say to my dad, and my dad would just say something along the lines of "You'll understand it someday."

I don't know if that's quite true; Dylan to me seems like someone you don't understand so much as live with, constantly revisiting and rediscovering. But the voice does make more sense to me now. It's the kind of voice I think Walt Whitman and Carl Sandburg were looking for, a fundamentally American construction drawn from the country's deeply twined and contradictory roots.

He started out as a folk singer, more an imitator than an innovator, working squarely in white traditions drawn from European balladry and squeezed through the Appalachian hills. But once Dylan mastered that idiom—and he did master it, like no one else—he expanded it. When he went "electric," he plugged in more than his guitar. His singing opened up and got rangier and deeper, his phrasing started incorporating blues rhythms and textures. He didn't just want to be Woody Guthrie or Dock Boggs anymore; he wanted to be Howlin' Wolf, too.

I remember seeing an Esquire magazine list of the all-time greatest blues singers several years ago. Dylan was the only white singer on the list, which was exactly right. People talk about Elvis combining white singing with black music, but that's not really true. Elvis liked the feel of R&B, and he got the bump and grind, but he softened it in the process. Dylan softened nothing, not the white mountain whine or the black Delta moan. He's not comfortable to listen to, and he's not trying to be. He's the sound of cultural tectonic plates shifting and colliding, throwing up mountain ranges where they meet.

That a Jewish kid from northern Minnesota could so completely internalize the great ragged musics of the nation, and that he did it at a time when the people and places that produced them were disappearing and assimilating into the great TV monoculture, is what, as much as anything, makes Dylan a great and uniquely American artist. His voice reaches from end to end of the 20th century, echoing where we've been and calling to us from somewhere up ahead.

I saw him play at Chilhowee Park a few weeks ago. He sounded loose and confident and playful. The stage was full of great musicians. But there was no instrument anywhere to match the one Dylan has carried with him, inside his chest and throat and lungs, for 60 years.

as for his voice i'm a big fan who must attest to having trouble with his voice of late--his phrasing is still marvelous, he even does certain things better than he ever did. but there's something in the natural incapacity of his 'new' voice that i can't get past, the mountain of phlegm coughed up with each line, the range that's dwindled to a minor third or whatever...

dylan did some really interesting things with his voice 'back in the day' that don't get acknowledged; i think he really pushed the limits of his natural range for a long time (not so much with the late 60s from-the-throat stuff and the occasional falsetto but the heavy duty mid-60s singing like 'it's all over now baby blue') and that might account for his voice's character now (that and the cigarettes)

yeah, i'm not trying to convince anyone they're brilliant...

seriously though i admire you a lot, for being so goddam sensible and smart when the culture here seems to mitigate against that so often

Is he still capable of doing cool things with it? Yes. Can it be an expressive tool? Yes. Has he even invented new ways of using his voice - ie., adapting his style to what's left of it? Yes. However, the main part of my criticism is that I think he still hasn't completely adapted himself to it- i.e., sometimes it sounds like he's still trying to sing as though he has his old range, and he doesn't. I think he should probably try to use more concision and brevity - do more with less - stick to a narrower range - perhaps go more bluesy - I think the bluesy numbers on Love and Theft tended to be more successful from a vocal performance standpoint. Because those epic ballads are becoming a bit tiring to listen to, and they didn't use to be.

(xpost)

There are superstar pop-cult icons beloved by millions who were or are meaner, nastier, and more spiteful than Bob Dylan (your mom for instance - followed closely by the likes of Lucille Ball, Billy Joel, Paul Simon, and Bill Cosby), but he's within spitting distance of the head of the pack. An idiot windbag and bully from the git-go, his tooth & nail-filled words (his tongue on fire like liar's pants) simultaneously functioning as self-righteous harangues aimed at everyone who doesn't get it/ain't us/in the know, wake up calls for any Mr. or Mrs. Jones-to-be who feels that their freedom is impinged upon by the responsibilities and duties thrown at them by, you know, church/state/manifest destiny/gym teachers/etc..., and hyper-literate (though often clouded with beatnik bombast and trickster whatzits) revenge fantasies designed not only to comfort bespectacled boys wronged by girls from the right counties but also assuage the fears of
those people who worry that the right fingers will not be pointed at people on the wrong side.
Early Dylan fans, not content with the murder balladeers and chain gang troubadours of previous generations, understandably wanted a blowhard to call their own. And as the thinking person's Elvis, Dylan single-handedly trumped the Depression-era love of hard work, war wounds, craftsmanship and dirt with youth, wit, and a cool-ass hair-do. His early appropriation of a dustbowl vocalese and aesthetic (what could be more natural for a 20-year-old kid from the sticks then to sound like a black-lunged miner with miles of bad road behind
him) may have been borne out of a deep and abiding love for dead and dying rail-riding pinkos, but more realistically it was his ticket in to a burgeoning folk scene always on the lookout for sympathetic fellow travelers who would show the proper respect for the decrepit elders
and originators of La Vie de Hootenanny. Once he was through genuflecting at Woodie Guthrie's bedside (and patted on the head by the story-song master), and once he was
through using his Midwestern wiles to get into Joan Baez's back pages (she the shining young star pre-Bob), he had made his mark and could proceed to do what he did. Which was: ruin everything! He was too cool! He was punk as fuck! His sneer was a mile wide! He raised the bar too high! His songs were too good! He looked really cool in pointy boots! He corrupted The Beatles! He made rock "important"! And "serious"! He subjected the world to thousands of horrible singersongwritercountryrockstreamofconsciousnessbroodingbadpoetry bands! He made people who had no business playing the blues play the blues! He was too big for rock, and ever after people wanted to be bigger than rock without ever realizing that rock is plenty big
enough already for whatever they could add to it. Rock before Dylan was mostly fun and then it wasn't (because of him), and it mostly isn't now (because of him). And the rock & roll that most people love doesn't have as much to do with him (it has more to do with Chuck Berry
than Bob Dylan), thus the most popular rock & roll is usually a lot more fun to listen to. As a rule, people who don't listen to Bob Dylan are usually a lot more fun to hang out with. Having said that, everyone should own at least four Bob Dylan albums (Freewheelin', Highway 61,
Blood on the Tracks, and Desire will do). It's funny that the only people who actually approached the ferocity of early pre-motorbike crash Dylan (1966 being the dividing line
between scary can-do-no-wrong Dylan and bloody, beaten, bowed, sometimes scary & good-when-he-feels-like-it Dylan) were the artless garage and punk bands of the 60's and 70's. The artistes of those eras mainly pegged the corn pone/po'boy/nasally/fake Carter
family/should sound like you're 60 when you're 20/spaghetti western Dylan that he could get away with because he was and is a freak of nature and because he invented the shit in the first place. That ferocity was hunger and could previously be heard on Charles Ives and
Eartha Kitt records, and thus it was alien to any pop or folk scene. The juvenile delinquents heard Dean and Brando in his voice, but unfortunately his words were too good and the boring people heard Shakespeare.

• 1963- Not Bad!!!!!
• 1964- Iffy!!!!!
• 1965- Pretty decent!!!!
• 1966- OK!!!!!!
• 1967 onwards- phew crikey Grandad!!!!!

  ― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Tuesday, 17 February 2004 22:09 (twenty years ago) link

Any Dylan alb is automatically 'interesting'

If anyone else had written these albums, they'd be considered genius.

And the scary thing is, the stuff Dylan left on the floor, the outtakes, are undeniably better than the official albums!

Yeah, I do like it....the Watchtower rocks, and hey, the band is tight.

I am reluctant to be seen in any way as potentially competing with such a magisterial rendering of that ecosystem but I may have posted something about that on this other thread in my ILX infancy: I Am Never Playing Live for Somebody Else's Band Ever Again!

pretty sure he is not bringing any rigor at all to these gigs, only contributing "OMG OMG you're so great, I can't believe I'm talking to you."

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.uP116MshE7b7H_KR3fPVlQHaFj?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

Remember when you were in the Beatles? That was cool.

Lol

I haven’t read any of Rob Sheffield’s interviews with the last two surviving Beatles, but I assume there is a little more depth there when he does it.

But maybe I am just trying to curry favor with RS if he’s reading, although based on my knowledge of his work habits, he’s not.

Elijah Wald on Facebook:

Every piece about Mack McCormick now seems to include his story about unplugging Dylan at Newport... a story that Mack told often, but cannot possibly have happened....this myth has already turned up in the NY Times and Rolling Stone, and I want to shut it down, because it's false and silly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFqG1Oy-wbs

this is a nice cover

https://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/03/30/SICP-31623.jpg

https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/SICP-31623

It's not overrated!

The Philosophy of Modern Song is hot bullshit.

Compare all the things that could be said about “Blue Suede Shoes” with what Dylan has to say about it

and weep

There's a funny story about "Blue Suede Shoes" in John Fogerty's autobiography, from when they were gigging around Bay Area bars before their first Fantasy record came out. In particular at a place called the Monkey Inn in Berkeley:

There was a lot of beer drinking at the Monkey Inn. In the back of the bar there was a partial wall, and over the top of it you could see the people playing shuffleboard. And whenever we played "Blue Suede Shoes", a fight would break out. You'd see the light over the shuffleboard swinging back and forth. Then the bartender would have to run back there and get everybody calmed down. Until we played "Blue Suede Shoes" again. We did it for our own amusement.

That’s much a more interesting take on the topic than Dylan’s incoherent noodling.

one for songs that weren't a bands biggest hit, but have gone on to be their legacy song and biggest iTunes seller but what a terrible #1 Knockin' on Heaven's Door is, such a mediocre song and vocal delivery no fun at all

it's not even the best track on Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid!

wonder if it's the (even worse) Guns n' Roses cover...

Another side of Bob Dylan there.

Just came across this olde saga recently, looking for background on Robertson's guitar contributions to Blonde On Blonde, which I didn't recall at all, though they were mentioned in several obits. He's briefly noted here, though mainly Daryl Sanders talks to "all but one" of the Nashville Cats who survived those sizzlin' sessions, and everything else up to 2011: https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/looking-back-on-bob-dylans-i-blonde-on-blonde-i-the-record-that-changed-nashville/article_c17cc27e-b6e4-5794-901c-e2e7ce4c5cb9.html

Don’t know about overrated but definitely over priced.

£120! https://superdeluxeedition.com/news/bob-dylan-the-complete-budokan-1978/#comments-193466

One way to avoid becoming a footnote is to outlive your critics.

I think I'll pay nothing and not spend four agonizing hours listening to that monstrous lump of turd. I love Dylan but I fucking hate that era, which mercifully lasted only a year or two. (Not really a fan of the evangelical era that followed, but at least it's tolerable in small doses and occasionally even great.)

the 3cd bootlegs 8 used to be insanely expensive, does contain this absolute gem (which for some reason is not on the new complete TooM sessions thing?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U0_eQqmqzY
Can't Wait (Outtake from 'Time Out Of Mind' Sessions, Version 2)

I have Fragments and double-checked - it's definitely on there.

my bad!

indeed it's track 10 on disc 5 (deluxe edition)

sublime

https://pitchfork.com/news/bob-dylan-plays-surprise-farm-aid-set-with-tom-pettys-heartbreakers-watch/ Maybe more via Rolling Stone link

Just How Far In Would You Like To Go: Another Book!

Bob Dylan : Mixing Up The Medicine is a career-spanning magnum opus that is the most comprehensive book yet published on the work of Nobel Prize-winning singersongwriter-poet and cultural icon Bob Dylan. It features over 1,100 images by 90 photographers and filmmakers, many never-before seen or published, as well as 30 original essays by leading artists and writers focusing on unseen treasures from the Bob Dylan Archive. The book’s introduction is by Sean Wilentz with an epilogue by Douglas Brinkley. Nearly all the materials found in the Bob Dylan Archive are unique, previously unavailable, or previously unknown. This book contains some of the best of the archive, with carefully curated Dylan draft lyrics, writings, drawings, photographs, and other ephemera. Bob Dylan : Mixing Up The Medicine covers Dylan’s life, from his childhood in Hibbing, Minnesota, and first recordings made in the 1950s, to his most recent albums and every important career milestone in between.

Nope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8zu0tf8hp4

funny dylan bit here