the nascent appeal of managerial competency

Yes, I don't think he's that different... or that intelligent for that matter

everything's relative, this is football

But yes, there are so many things wrong with the hiring practices of football clubs. The biggest, in my opinion, is that once a manager is sacked, they will go head on for 1 name and try to get him within 2 weeks. No-one is interviewed about their prospective plans for the club or what they think of it already etc. - they just jump in head first and hope they get a Harry Redknapp instead of a Avram Grant.

If clubs hired like, you know, a business would, I suspect you'd see a lot more comptenent managers oft with no real footballing background.

Tom who are you saying isn't that intelligent or different? Because if it is Wenger (or Fergie for that matter) then smh.

Nah, Jose

You asked: Is jose mourinho jewish?

You asked: Is jose mourinho a catholic?

I'm confused

Is mourinho really any more intelligent or technically adept than say del bosque or paisley? etc etc Or does he just portray himself that way and the fact that he seems to have come from 'outside' football (even thought that isn't the case) it is assumed that he must be a cut above and have something different about them.

I think how he reacts this summer will be telling when it comes to Mourinho. (Lke Sacchi, Real could be the breaking point.)

The thing we need to happen is the Maradona-takes-Napoli-to-the-title thing with managers to tell how good they are. It's why Clough is seen as the best. If Mourinho, for whatever reason, is no longer Real boss come next season, I want to see him take over Leyton Orient and if he can FM his way into the Champions League, then fine, he is the most intelligent and tactically proficient manager in history.

you're picking two exceptionally successful managers there, is the thing.

Intelligent and competent managers stand out in the epl, i think that's pretty certain. But if i think of eg fishing as a male dominated industry i've experience in, it's the same. The majority of promotion occurs from within the ranks, the pack leaders get the jobs. Professional management isn't welcome, regardless of how it would affect overall efficiency/performance, because there's still a strong element of protectionism associated with having one of 'your men' in charge.

Lol ramblings tho

xp porto

I was going to say that, but they're not Leyton Orient

where i do give mourinho credit is that I really don't think anyone could have done a better job than he did during his time at inter (i'm not including in that assessment developing players etc) just purely in producing results in that time frame with that group of players. I kinda think the same with regards to Chelsea. I don't think that AT ALL in the case of Real Madrid. So far.

no, but clough couldnt win the cl with notts forest today either

He might with Porto though!

xpost to darragh - lol ok but promotion rarely happens within? in the past five years there has been... tony adams, avram grant and steve kean? and those are all a case of assistants being called something more official than caretaker manager?

xpost to... darragh again - porto are by far the club in portugal with the most money and prestige? that's like the portuguese equiv. of being... real madrid manager.

xp mourinho's done a great job at real in every aspect but one- comparisons with barca

porto are by far the club in portugal with the most money and prestige?

I would have thought that would be Benfica?

becoming champion with a team from outwith one of the big leagues is a pretty big deal.

were they playing monaco in that final?

yup, 3-0.

Who was the Monaco manager?

Also I said 'into' the CL and not 'win' the CL. The likes of Toppmoller, Grant and Svara have all managed teams who made it to the CL final in the past ten years so I think we can agree that the competition depends on a degree of luck as well as great ability.

promotion from within the ranks of ex-players, not from within the club, sam

didier deschamps

i really don't see how he's done a great job at real tbh Not that I'm saying any manager could have got them to supplant Barca this season, just don't see any big improvement in the team compared to last few seasons.

Re: Benfica - the 3 decades leading up to Mourinho's time at Porto are called this by wikipedia

# 1.8 The silver era (1970–1994)
# 1.9 The dark years (1994–2003)

for a reason.

wasnt deschamps monaco manageer?

promotion from within the ranks of ex-players, not from within the club, sam

― socks & pwns may break my bwns (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 May 2011 15:38 (1 minute ago)

if i try to rmde at myself i'd be worried about them getting stuck some how

Deschamps took over during the season, which makes my point about Svara null and void.

but would be interesting if football management went the way of head coaching jobs in nfl, where the job seems so technical and complicated, to me anyway, that being an ex player is pretty far done the list of qualifications I'd imagine. It also appears to be a necessarily collaborative effort with untold assistants, gm's, salary cap experts etc etc

i really don't see how he's done a great job at real tbh Not that I'm saying any manager could have got them to supplant Barca this season, just don't see any big improvement in the team compared to last few seasons.

― pandemic

he got real to the semi. and lost the semi in part because of the sending off of pepe in the first-leg and the disallowed goal of pipita in the second, both fairly unlucky breaks in such big games.

precisely, pandemic

Jeez, i'm getting flashbacks to my 'history of management theory model' and frederick taylor etc, but it's probably v much the same thing

fair points jim.

Reminded of this OSM article from 2007, about the influence of Moneyball and management theory on English football.

but would be interesting if football management went the way of head coaching jobs in nfl, where the job seems so technical and complicated, to me anyway, that being an ex player is pretty far done the list of qualifications I'd imagine. It also appears to be a necessarily collaborative effort with untold assistants, gm's, salary cap experts etc etc

― pandemic, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 15:42 (2 minutes ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if this is closer than most think? Especially considering the debt most are carrying to see the smarter clubs go this way. (We've already seen 'Moneyball''s influence, this would be step 2?)

The examples cited there:

Aidy Boothroyd at Watford, Iain Dowie at Charlton, Alan Pardew at West Ham and Pardew's protege Phil Parkinson at Hull

Before the season was half done, Pardew, Dowie and Parkinson had all been fired after terrible runs of results. Boothroyd's Watford were adrift at the bottom of the Premiership.

Footballers no fuck all about football is the thing. See Gerrard saying LFC let go of Murphy too soon and that if Arsenal had Carragher they'd be champions.

Argh, *know*. I obviously don't no hw ot splel.

This LRB article is relevant - http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n01/david-runciman/he-shoots-he-scores - discusses Mourinho's percentage-playing managerial pragmatism, but also notes his un-routinised charisma, in comparison with the even more pragmatic Rafa:

Mourinho has got one other thing going for him that no one who has watched him in action can fail to notice. He is astonishingly good-looking. Barclay is metrosexual enough to be able to discuss this without embarrassment, but he prefers to call it ‘presence’, comparing Mourinho to charismatic but hardly swoon-inducing men like Bill Shankly and Brian Clough. What he has in common with Clough and Shankly is that the players appear desperate to do whatever it takes to win his approval, like schoolgirls fighting for an approving glance from their favourite teacher.

See Gerrard saying LFC let go of Murphy too soon and that if Arsenal had Carragher they'd be champions.

shhh didn't want to bring that up in case ahoy hoy's head exploded!

yeah, mourinho definitely inspires love from his squads. him and materazzi crying when he left inter. this may be to do with charisma, it's hard to tell what he's like with the players as i can't imagine it is anything like the character he puts on with the media, but otoh it could be because he's a gaffer that will win you things, and players naturally respond to that.

lol i'd take carragher over squiggle

Yes, I don't think he's that different... or that intelligent for that matter

― Tom D has taken many months to run this thread to ground (Tom D.), Tuesday, 10 May 2011 15:09 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

everything's relative, this is football

― socks & pwns may break my bwns (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 May 2011 15:11 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

^^^^^

but would be interesting if football management went the way of head coaching jobs in nfl, where the job seems so technical and complicated, to me anyway, that being an ex player is pretty far done the list of qualifications I'd imagine. It also appears to be a necessarily collaborative effort with untold assistants, gm's, salary cap experts etc etc

― pandemic, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 15:42 (1 hour ago)

i think it is heading in that direction

villas boas' promotion to manager from the backroom staff of another successful manager is a typical nfl trajectory (although with offensive/defensive co-ordinators there are more, and more demarcated/rationalized intermediate jobs)

pardew, boothroyd, dowie et al are all terrible managers and even worse people, a grim mixture of lower league clogger and management theory cant

pardew doing alright even having sold his best player tbf

he's shit

good lower level manager, which is another debate tbh

He's done worse in the lower leagues than in the Premiership, more often than not. Poor Charlton.

sorry, i meant 'good lower level manager'

Oh man I've just realised they've got Stoke next as well, that's the sort of fixture where managerial graves are dug.

Moyes prob did manage his way out of slumps - as in the odd awful season followed by returning to 6th or whatever, IIRC?

His early years at Everton were a series of slumps and revivals - kept them up in his first season then finished 7th then 17th then 4th then couldn't buy a win the next season but brought them up from bottom to 11th by the end of the season. After that it was a consistent run of finishing between 5th and 8th but even then they always seemed to start or finish the season badly.

youd have him ahead of ambrose alright

there are at least ten things I'd change at Celtic before Ambrose, who, and let's be clear, is a fucking disaster of a centre hoff

Been paying less attention to the fitba than ever in the last year or two and confess that I have no great confidence in the current Aston villa squad to wriggle their way out of present difficulties, but I find the appointment of remi garde quite intriguing and I'll be interested to see where it leads.

Use of all the French players to hand during the recent man city match (even Charles n'zogbia ffs) has piqued my interest and got me to wondering if there are other examples out there of managers seemingly being appointed explicitly because of their ability to work with the particular resources available - villa invest large sums in young French players and then appoint a manager whose reputation is founded p. much entirely on his ability to work with and bring along young French players.

Are there other high profile examples of this kind of targeted appointment and if so, how successful has this strategy proven in the past?

Just re-read this thread top-to-bottom for the 10th time btw, so great

Valencia head coach Gary Neville has revealed in an exclusive interview with Sky Sports that the current focus is Valencia, but his long-term future does not lie in management.

The former Manchester United defender is in charge of the La Liga club until the end of the season, but is yet to win a game in the league.

His side face Real Madrid - live on Sky Sports 3 HD at 7pm on Sunday - following the 1-0 defeat by Villarreal on New Year's Eve. Valencia currently sit 11 points off the Champions League spots.

But the Englishman's long-term future is clear in his head, and speaking with Sky Sports' Geoff Shreeves, Neville said: "I'm not going to say where I want to end up, and it isn't in management or head coaching, so I want to be clear about that.

Gerrard thinks deeply about the game that has enabled him to fulfil his dreams and it is when the conversation moves on to management that his opinions strike a chord; he, after all, is one of a generation that includes Jamie Carragher, Frank Lampard and Rio Ferdinand with so much to offer.

'Would the likes of Carra and ex-players like Robbie (Fowler)? Keep them about. Find roles for them. They have too much to offer to just be let go. I have regrets now that I didn't start my badges at 21-22. All that time I wasted in hotels being when I was watching The Office and The Sopranos.

'I wish I could be doing my 'Pro' licence now. I know many players who get to the end of their careers and get handed a C licence pack, which is about four inches thick, and say "Nah, I'm not doing that". He could have 70/80 caps and 600 career appearances. They have so much to offer.'

the neville stuff is p ridiculous, like he had to distance himself from england and man u this week, when the valencia job, which he basically got due to being friends with a millionaire, is almost certainly a doomed project.

'I wish I could be doing my 'Pro' licence now. I know many 70/80 caps and 600 career appearances players who get to the end of their careers and get handed an elite club level job, which is about having to do work, and say "Nah, I'm not doing that". They have so much to offer.'

zidane at real madrid is going to be a disaster

afaik he is not very clever

charismatic megafauna

it's the opposite of a nascent appeal of managerial competence appointment

combining galactico signing policy with "good madrid man" appease-the-plebs-populism

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/04/19/2FCBEDBD00000578-3384157-image-a-61_1451936033479.jpg

It's like an elite version of replacing Villas Boas with Tim Sherwood.

lol right

down to the ballyhooed not-sign-zidane-already-got-sherwood.html tales of yore

like the idea of tuchel getting his defenders to play practice games while holding tennis balls in their hands to discourage shirt pulling.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/may/14/quique-sanchez-flores-watford-departure-explained

vg

Conte, Pochettino, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Wenger, Koeman, Pellegrino, Howe, Bilic, De Boer, Clement, Silva, Benitez.

Not all perfect by any means, especially at the back end of that list, but this probably represents the single best crop of managers to have all been working in the Premiership at once?

ffs you missed Wagner, who is as the chant goes "better than Klopp"!

Hard times for the Huddersfield fan: chased out of the EFL thread by angry Charlton hard-lads, unconsidered by the Prem lot.

Lol! It is hard out there when yr upstart club has just won the Euromillions jackpot.

xp
We might be getting Ince jr from Derby, so it will probably be our fault if they bid for Ollie Watkins. But at least they aren't shy of paying big transfer fees.

zidane at real madrid is going to be a disaster

― Cuombas (jim in glasgow), Monday, January 4, 2016 1:20 PM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

um

Draw against a 3rd tier club yesterday in the Copa tbf

lost to girona in the league a month ago too and currently 4th in the league.

but still won the champs league twice and la liga once so perhaps not the worst disaster

Champs league don't mean shit nowadays. Just look at Spurs.

(he's not that bad though, I agree)

Fp ya cuntcha

I'll take it on the chin.

hadn't heard of this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGz1nWwCaw

speedrunning managerial competency like never before

i listened to wengers desert island discs the last night and hes a good charming speaker so he is

Unfortunately no Magma or Heldon among his picks.

alas Lorraine