jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

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actual sociopathy is extremely rare, this terms gets massively overused imo

― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:10 PM (8 hours ago) Bookmark

otm

shamefully blowable (latebloomer), Saturday, 23 April 2011 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 23 April 2011 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link

"sociopath" is definitely overused in cases where "asshole" would suffice

shamefully blowable (latebloomer), Saturday, 23 April 2011 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^^

I think I'm running out of carets.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 23 April 2011 21:41 (thirteen years ago) link

I can think of exactly two off the top of my head - Ted Bundy and the one Columbine kid.

Edmund Emil Kemper maybe too, not 100% sure

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 23 April 2011 22:03 (thirteen years ago) link

*waves at Kingfish* I still post here, actually more often (though still hardly ever) than I ever did in years of dedicated lurking. Mostly on ILM, though.

I just got Seth Mnookin's Panic Virus book (part of a huge haul from Amazon of books on societal issues in medicine). I could post my thoughts to this thread while reading it.

anyway I'm in a lecture about ~autism~ right now and dude is basically saying that there's at least twenty odd genes involved in autistic disorders, and that several other developmental disorders are related. all this magic bullet stuff is the sad theater of ppl reaching for answers for something they don't understand

― FUN FUN FUN FUN (gbx), Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:33 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

As a doctor, this bothers me almost as much as the denialism (which I have an easier time being empathetic about, and have lower standards for). I have yet to read a medical journal article on some barely understood phenomenon that doesn't start with several dense paragraphs of handwaving about genetics or patterns of immune activation or hypoperfusion on fMRI. God forbid we actually admit we don't know something, or at least that existing theories do not provide an adequate explanation (or more precisely, provide multiple inadequate and mutually contradictory explanations).

If you found an ipod lying on a beach would you assume it assembled by random, or would you judgementally look through the playlists?

haha YES.

misty sensorium (Plasmon), Sunday, 24 April 2011 03:44 (thirteen years ago) link

hey plasmon, good to see you again. That book looks worthwhile.

Crazed Mister Handy (kingfish), Sunday, 24 April 2011 04:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Plasmon, the primary trait I look for in a dr is one who can say 'look I/we just don't know'. Mad respect for that.

I can't find the 1 in 4 sociopath study but 1 in 25 was considered the magic number. That's still stupidly high. Also, maybe y'all might consider reading some studies before randomly deciding a statistics is way off.

Oh and yeah autism is crazy complicated obv but I can understand how the excitement of finding neurons that relate to emotion, particularly empathy, language and social development might lead to new information about a disorder who's symptoms show an extreme lack of all of these things.

calling planet smurf (sunny successor), Sunday, 24 April 2011 04:45 (thirteen years ago) link

Posting this here since the conspiracism mechanism is the same: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/04/30/conspiracy_theories_truther_birther/index.html

Crazed Mister Handy (kingfish), Saturday, 30 April 2011 22:00 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm skimming the panic virus at work, it's pretty great (gives good background, clearly written, etc) and the chapter on Morgellons (which I'd never even heard of before) is wtf

congratulations (n/a), Monday, 2 May 2011 21:53 (thirteen years ago) link

finished the panic virus (fuck it, it's my last day at this job and i'm not doing any work). really good, at least as a layperson.

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 3 May 2011 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link

it actually made me feel kind of compassionate about the parents who believe in this stuff (especially the ones who joined in before the info about wakefield and his dumb theories were widespread), because having an autistic kid sounds really really terrible, and i can totally understand someone looking for a way, any way, to comprehend why it happened and how to deal with it.

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 3 May 2011 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link

^^^smartest post on this thread by far

calling planet smurf (sunny successor), Tuesday, 3 May 2011 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link

ha there are at least a couple of medical professionals in training on this thread so i doubt it

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 3 May 2011 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah, I get that people need some way to deal with an autism diagnosis, but my compassion ends when their actions/advocacy become dangerous to other people and the public.

(and there's at least one medical professional not in training on this thread, ahem)

kate78, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link

FWIW, I have a friend whose young son was recently diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes, and it didn't take him long to get on the environmental conspiracy track. People like answers, but to me it's both a fascinating and frightening facet of the human condition that sometimes there just aren't answers.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:29 (thirteen years ago) link

What in the environment was supposed to have caused his diabetes?

offee is for losers only, do you not c? (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Sugar in the air.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:44 (thirteen years ago) link

there is some evidence that may suggest that a viral infection could trigger DM1.

kate78, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:53 (thirteen years ago) link

which in a vague way could be said of lots of autoimmune disease.

cop a cute abdomen (gbx), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:55 (thirteen years ago) link

yep.

kate78, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 00:58 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=trains-nukes-marriage-and-vaccines-2011-04-22

The facts rarely matter as much as what we feel about the facts

Crazed Mister Handy (kingfish), Monday, 9 May 2011 19:26 (twelve years ago) link

two months pass...

Fright Doctors
The hideous impacts of the vaccine-autism myth—and the reasons it has proven so difficult to debunk.

mookieproof, Thursday, 4 August 2011 00:52 (twelve years ago) link

A man from the cord blood bank told me on the phone the other day that stem cells can treat Autism. Not sure how that works.

Serial Chiller (sunny successor), Thursday, 4 August 2011 02:54 (twelve years ago) link

Wd have thought that'd be pretty huge news if true?

Rameses Street (Trayce), Thursday, 4 August 2011 02:59 (twelve years ago) link

half of the four comments currently on that article are already depressing
xx-post

mh, Thursday, 4 August 2011 05:53 (twelve years ago) link

I love how people still bitch about thimerosal, which isnt even IN MMR anymore :|

Rameses Street (Trayce), Thursday, 4 August 2011 05:54 (twelve years ago) link

Wd have thought that'd be pretty huge news if true?
autism isn't big news. The psycho freaks trying to make it possible for ourkids to get polio again are big news. I mean the mirror neurons the 5th revolution in science isnt big news ornews at all unless you read science journals

Serial Chiller (sunny successor), Friday, 5 August 2011 17:11 (twelve years ago) link

three weeks pass...

http://www.salon.com/news/autism/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/08/25/vaccines_safe

Oliver Willis brings word of yet another panel of scientists announcing that there is no link whatsoever between the M.M.R. vaccine and autism. “The M.M.R. vaccine doesn’t cause autism, and the evidence is overwhelming that it doesn’t,” said Dr. Ellen Wright Clayton, who knows what she's talking about despite not being a celebrity.

Blind Diode Jefferson (kingfish), Friday, 26 August 2011 13:27 (twelve years ago) link

the next shoe to drop is when they say "mammography is effectively useless" again and people refuse to belive it again

Splendid Curving Oasis of Ivory (Latham Green), Friday, 26 August 2011 14:01 (twelve years ago) link

Just came across this 2003 drama starring Hugh Bonneville has heroic Dr Andrew Wakefield in his war against a smug and uncaring medical establishment. Wonder when that will get repeated.

Now he's doing horse (DL), Friday, 26 August 2011 14:05 (twelve years ago) link

I can't remember what magazine I was flipping through in a waiting room a few weeks ago, but it was interviewing doctors who've actually dropped families as patients when they've refused vaccines. They talked about it being painful and a last resort, but it was nice to hear doctors basically saying, "GTFO with that noise".

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 26 August 2011 14:08 (twelve years ago) link

xp Monthly breast self-exams have been known to be worse than useless for some time now--if a tumor is big enough to be felt, it's big enough to have already began to spread--but they are still being promoted widely.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 26 August 2011 22:15 (twelve years ago) link

Yeah I challenged my gyn on the "mammogram every year after 40" and she's all "I still recommend it." WTF ever I read the damn study myself and every two years is fine for me imo.

quincie, Friday, 26 August 2011 22:30 (twelve years ago) link

Of course the American Society for Radiology challenged those studies to the hilt, which I would have maybe paid more attention to had I not worked for a specialty medical society and learned first hand exactly which side their bread is buttered on.

quincie, Friday, 26 August 2011 22:42 (twelve years ago) link

Anybody see Michael Shermer's new book, _the Believing Brain_?

Supposed to be pretty interesting, except for the bits where he goes on about the free market

Blind Diode Jefferson (kingfish), Saturday, 27 August 2011 02:53 (twelve years ago) link

-if a tumor is big enough to be felt, it's big enough to have already began to spread-

In which case you'd definitely want to know about it, yes? Do you think it's better to wait until you can't help but notice it?

Frimpong iddle I po (onimo), Saturday, 27 August 2011 10:29 (twelve years ago) link

1zsx

Serial Chiller (sunny successor), Sunday, 28 August 2011 20:01 (twelve years ago) link

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/killing-beneficial-bacteria/

not ~really~ related, but interesting

anyone have access to Nature?

remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 16:33 (twelve years ago) link

i guess i posted it here because i recently encountered, obliquely, someone who was both a) skeptical of vaccine and b) a sufferer of "chronic lyme's disease," and on incredibly---some might say irresponsibly---long-term antibiotic treatment

remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 16:35 (twelve years ago) link

WHOAH

the wheelie-suitcase of the sky plus WITH SPIKED BARBS (Laurel), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 16:36 (twelve years ago) link

gbx, does your webmail work?

kkvgz, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 17:01 (twelve years ago) link

eh, whatever:

Antibiotic overuse: Stop the killing of beneficial bacteria
• Martin Blaser
Nature
24 August 2011
Concerns about antibiotics focus on bacterial resistance — but permanent changes to our protective flora could have more serious consequences, says Martin Blaser.

The average child in the United States and other developed countries has received 10–20 courses of antibiotics by the time he or she is 18 years old1. In many respects, this is a life-saving development. The average US citizen born in 1940 was expected to live to the age of 63; a baby born today should reach 78, in part because of antibiotics. But the assumption that antibiotics are generally safe has fostered overuse and led to an increase in bacterial resistance to treatments.
Other, equally serious, long-term consequences of our love of antibiotics have received far less attention. Antibiotics kill the bacteria we do want, as well as those we don't. Early evidence from my lab and others hints that, sometimes, our friendly flora never fully recover. These long-term changes to the beneficial bacteria within people's bodies may even increase our susceptibility to infections and disease. Overuse of antibiotics could be fuelling the dramatic increase in conditions such as obesity, type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease, allergies and asthma, which have more than doubled in many populations (see graph).

We urgently need to investigate this possibility. And, even before we understand the full scope, there is action we should take.

Bacteria have lived in and on animals — constituting their microbiome — since multicellular life evolved about 1 billion years ago. Hosts derive many benefits from their bacterial guests2: the Bacteroides species that dwell in the colon synthesize our required vitamin K; gut bacteria help us to resist invading organisms.

An oral or injectable antibiotic diffuses through the bloodstream and affects targeted pathogen and residential microbiota alike. And evidence is accumulating that our welcome residents do not, in fact, recover completely3 or are replaced in the long term by resistant organisms4.

Collateral damage

In the early twentieth century, Helicobacter pylori was the dominant microbe in the stomachs of almost all people. By the turn of the twenty-first century, fewer than 6% of children in the United States, Sweden and Germany were carrying the organism. Other factors may be at play in this disappearance5, but antibiotics may be a culprit. For example, a single course of amoxicillin or a macrolide antibiotic, most commonly used to treat middle-ear or respiratory infections in children, may also eradicate H. pylori in 20–50% of cases.

“Each generation could be beginning life with a smaller endowment of ancient microbes than the last.”

In humans, eradicating H. pylori affects the regulation of two hormones produced in the stomach and involved in energy balance, ghrelin and leptin. And as H. pylori has disappeared from people's stomachs, there has been an increase in gastroesophageal reflux, and its attendant problems such as Barrett's oesophagus and oesophageal cancer. Could the trends be linked?

H. pylori is a risk factor for peptic ulcers and stomach cancer, but a microbe probably wouldn't have been so pervasive if it didn't carry some benefit to its host. Indeed, large studies we performed have found that people without the bacterium are more likely to develop asthma, hay fever or skin allergies in childhood6. Stomachs that lack H. pylori seem immunologically quite different from those that do not, and infection of young mice with H. pylori protects against experimental asthma7.

There is other evidence that antibiotics cause shifts in microbial composition that may bring long-term physiological changes. For instance, as farmers have discovered, continuous, sub-therapeutic doses of many different antibacterial agents cause animals to gain weight with less food. And the earlier that antibiotics are started, the more profound the effects. In my laboratory, we have preliminary evidence in a mouse model that changes in body fat and tissue composition are associated both with low-dose antibiotic treatment that mimics farm use, and with high-dose treatment similar to those used to treat childhood infections.

The changes in our microbiome may even be fuelling the transmission of deadly organisms such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus5 and Clostridium difficile8. This is not an enormous surprise, because one of the important roles of an intact microbial ecosystem is to resist intrusions by pathogenic organisms.

To better understand the long-term effects of antibiotic use, we need to compare the microbiomes of antibiotic-using and antibiotic-free populations. We are working with Maria Gloria Dominguez Bello at the University of Puerto Rico in San Juan and her colleagues to study people living in remote regions in the Amazon who either have never received antibiotics or who have had very limited recent exposures.

If antibiotics do cause long-term physiological changes, we may not be able to wait until we fully understand the problem before changing our approaches. Knowledge gleaned from farms indicates that early life is most crucial, triggering physiological changes that are difficult to reverse later on.
Consequently, we should reduce the use of antibiotics during pregnancy and childhood. Antibiotics — particularly penicillins — are now given routinely to between one-third and one-half of all women during pregnancy or nearing childbirth in the United States and other developed countries. Babies acquire their founding bacterial populations from their mothers while passing through the vagina at birth. So each generation — particularly the 30% or so of infants born via Caesarian9 — could be beginning life with a smaller endowment of ancient microbes than the last5.

When antibiotics seem warranted — such as in the 30% of pregnant women with group B Streptococcus, which causes serious infection in about 1 in 200 newborns — we must better assess which mothers need to be treated, or whether a vaccine might be preferable.

Targeted attack

Another precautionary step would be to develop specific agents to stabilize at-risk residential microbial populations, such as effective probiotics. We also need new, narrow-spectrum antibacterial agents to minimize collateral effects on the microbiota. This is an admittedly huge task, which will require providing incentives for the pharmaceutical industry to develop targeted classes of antibacterial agents and, importantly, better diagnostics that rapidly identify the problematic agent.

We may also need to start replacing what has been lost over the past 70 years. Along with receiving standard vaccinations, for instance, one day, children whose microbiome has been genotyped could be given inoculations of specific strains of H. pylori to reduce their chance of later developing allergies or asthma, then receive narrow-spectrum antibiotics later in life to eliminate the bacterium and lower the risks of peptic ulceration and gastric cancer.

The ease of worldwide travel is increasing our global vulnerability to pathogens, just as our ancient microbial defences are eroding. We must make use of the available technology to protect and study our bacterial benefactors before it is too late.

kkvgz, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 17:03 (twelve years ago) link

well yeah - in the long term, antibiotics will be the secondary cause of the demise of the species imo, with the proximal cause being the antibiotic-resistant bugs that evolve in response to overuse of antibiotics

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 17:37 (twelve years ago) link

That and moving to the suburbs to have lawns and dogs, apparently.

BIG ROOSD aka the WTCdriver (Phil D.), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 17:40 (twelve years ago) link

An acquaintance from the Inf. Dis. Society of Americas said that she and her colleagues got *death threats* after the IDSA published clinical practice guidelines on Lyme which said that chronic Lyme was not a real deal and docs needed to knock it off with the long term antibiotic therapy.

Those chronic lyme people are as scary as the vaccine nutjobs imo.

quincie, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 17:51 (twelve years ago) link

i've also read that doctors who published a study that Chronic Fatigue might be partly psychological have received death threats. even better irony there, i guess...

goole, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:01 (twelve years ago) link

wtf

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 18:03 (twelve years ago) link


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