should i give the grateful dead a chance?

man, i love the dead, but if there was ever a band that was born to make you wince, it was them. soooooooooooo much goodness and so much...erghhhhhhhhhhhh too. but that's their thing. the whole "they're not the best at what they do..." those live moments when they seem utterly incapable of getting a groove going. the ultimate bummer. but there is so much beauty too. and robert hunter and jerry garcia were responsible for the bulk of it. can't help but think what if...jerry had hooked up with some of the umpteen zillion other amazing musicians in california back then instead of the dudes he ended up with. but then they wouldn't be who they were. for better and worse.

(like...what if the dead had been jorma and jerry and the god-like jack casady and, i dunno, the drummer from mad river and dallas taylor or who knows...so many possiblities...)

xpost It's not a competition, dude (in terms if influence and impact, I don't think I'd rate the VU, for example, over the Dead). I love music. All sorts of music. Like the forum says. Which is why I find it odd that a particular music many, many people love, with many qualities that I generally love, has never clicked with me. That's why I've given it so many chances. I can listen for hours to indulgent Fairport Convention spinoffs. I can listen for hours to certain acts in the Kompakt stable. I can listen for hours to krautrock wankery. I've just always wondered, personally, what it is about the Dead, of all bands, that's failed to connect with me.

Again, must be the drugs!

One of the larger barriers to enjoying the Dead are bad memories of sketchy Deadheads. Or losing a friend to that world. I had a couple buddies who fell into heavy touring and never really came back, like they'd become moonies or something.

xp: ohhhhhh fuck, I didn't even know you posted here. shit. apologies both to you and to anyone who might have been offended by the language.

― cia never wore tie-dyes (kkvgz),

xpp
are you blaming the drugs that you yourself are on?

my one wish is for garcia/hunter songs to someday be as widely covered as dylan songs. or cole porter songs! cuz you can play them in a myriad of styles and there are so many good/great/beautiful tunes there. i know there are probably a zillion dead cover albums, but i'd kill for one or two great ones. country people. bluegrass people. jazz singers. i'm leery of alt-rock cover projects...but jeez i just have so much respect for the work they did. even if you don't like the band itself, the songs really do speak for themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj6EMLgJjts

If I remember right, you dislike Nina Simone, but might have been interesting if she covered the Dead, she did so well with L. Cohen, Dylan, George Harrison.

i swear i am turning the corner on nina. i'm older!

i just think those songs have been ill-served. they should be known by lots more people! they should be standards! and not just jam band standards. or shaggy bar band standards. i mean, that's fine too. it is truly "folk" music. but they work in so many ways.

Yeah, I hear you. Which Dead song is closest to being a standard, do you think? Seems like "Friend of the Devil".

yeah, and sometimes you get that perfect marriage. tom dylan petty doing friend of the dylan for instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT_HwzlroeM

(petty live box thing one of the best live things i've heard in a zillion years. he should just do an album of dead covers. that would kick ass.)

ripple has been covered a lot too. bluegrass/alt-country/etc covers of it have been pretty popular for years.

then of course there is this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGwMmwppLh4

Lyle Lovett's "Friend of the Devil" on that Deadicated disc in the early 90s was amazing. Actually, lots of good stuf on that comp.

scott otm in locating much of the Dead's awesomeness with Robert Hunter; he was a great lyricist...

Speaking still as someone not really compelled much at all by the band -- or, as I know I've beaten into the ground enough times, not primarily concerned by lyrics in general -- but nonetheless: Hunter's an interesting character from what I can tell -- if anything it seems that whatever edge Josh mentions he wants out of the band might best be found in his words. Probably a stretch, I don't know, but something about the jaundiced view of a number of his lyrics (or most of them?) might place him more in alliance with Steely Dan or Zevon, perhaps. Strip everything else aside and something like this is pretty frickin' bleak:

Sitting and staring out of the hotel window
Got a tip they're gonna kick the door in again
Like to get some sleep before I travel
But if you got a warrant I guess you're gonna come in

So as Scott notes, the idea that the songs themselves have been ill-served rings true for me.

also: lol Sublime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cg2O4SsHQw

(I actually like ^this a lot)

Ned OTM for bringing Truckin in; that & Ripple are probably Dead's songs closest to achieveing 'popular standard' status...

(then i have those moments where i think - damn why couldn't the new riders have been jerry's band!?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJdq0OcRK3o

if you don't like the dead at least give the new riders a chance! so great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAuh6HjiiaM

"Ripple" as a lyric almost makes me think of "Rubber Ring" by the Smiths -- same sense of an uneasy relationship between obsessive fanbase and suspicious creator already looking on down the line, though a bit more generous in Hunter's case, if not by too much more. (Mott the Hoople's "I Wish I Was Your Mother" might also slot in here...or maybe I'm thinking of "The Moon Upstairs.")

there's gotta be a good goth cover of "it must have been the roses", no, ned?

Annie laid her head down in the roses
She had ribbons, ribbons, ribbons in her long brown hair
I don't know, maybe it was the roses
All I know, I could not leave her there

I don't know, it must have been the roses
The roses or the ribbons in her long brown hair
I don't know, maybe it was the roses
All I know, I could not leave her there

Ten years the waves rolled the ships home from the sea
Thinking well how it may blow in all good company
If I tell another what your own lips told to me
Let me lay 'neath the roses and my eyes no longer see

One pane of glass in the window
No one is complaining, though, come in and shut the door
Faded is the crimson from the ribbons that she wore
And it's strange how no one comes round any more

Will a hippie/demi-goth type on ukelele with a cat do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTS9PvKMWIg

cat definitely trying to get to the knives on the counter...

Boo to this. I've always felt the Band captured exceptionally well what I felt the Dead was frequently aiming for.

To me The Band seem to indulge so much more in the shapeless countrified jamming that the Dead are accused of (talking albums here, I don't give a shit about live stuff). They didn't really have the songs to back it up. And their attempts at old-timey folkiness in the lyrics "I work for the union 'cause she's so good to me" etc. come across as way more forced than the Dead. But as far as great poppy songs, I would give them The Weight, Cripple Creek, The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down... what else? vs. well, to me, nearly every song on AB & WD is better and more catchy than any of those Band songs, so I can't really make a list. I mean, at the very most conservative list, you have to give them Cream Puff War, Friend of the Devil, Truckin, St. Stephen, Casey Jones, but if you like sort of country rock Americana, I don't know how you couldn't get behind Dupree's Diamond Blues, Doin' That Rag, Dire Wolf, shit I dunno, again, basically every song on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty.

^^OTM I just picked up American Beauty used and I've one of those "Canonical album blowing you away experiences". And I've been thinking back to The Band, who've been a frequently cited influence on this era of the Dead. I'm really starting to believe that both the Dead and Little Feat did an amzing job picking up the reigns as it were. They were doing The Band's schtick way better than The Band did from there on out, and arguably bettering their peak.

That said, I'm also wondering about Doug Sahm (and the Sir Douglas Quintet)'s influence on this era of the Dead. They were tight at the time and Dan Healy engineered much of the SDQ stuff of the era. It's a bit lighter fare, but that "back to roots" approach fels the same. It's just that Doug never gets cited.

Sir Douglas Quintet was cool, but also the Charlatans were a pretty major influence on all of the SF bands, doing not only the jangly folk rock thing, but often a more country sound. Not to mention the full victorian cowboy getup. Also, the Bradley's Barn album by the Beau Brummels.

Lyle Lovett's "Friend of the Devil" on that Deadicated disc in the early 90s was amazing. Actually, lots of good stuf on that comp.

― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, April 19, 2011

otm. los lobos, suzanne vega, cowboy junkies and jane's addiction all kill it on that one too iirc.

that comp and some of ryan adams' dead-inspired stuff ("magnolia mountain" in particular) occasionally makes me think i might come around on, y'know, the dead. but then no.

oh here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDgPZScj5Ak

will rep for Ministry's "Friend of the Devil" from Bridge Benefit 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGwMmwppLh4&sns=em

Al's voice is a nice surprise on this

The Band only has a few songs that are as good as anything on WD

Don't know where to start with this......

There is nothing the Dead ever did that matches four bars of Levon Helm's drumming, never mind the songs, or the singing, or the rest of the playing.

Someone said up there that the like of me hadn't heard enough Dead and were posing - I reckon it's the opposite prob with deadheads: they haven't heard enough other music - or listened properly - and imagine the tepid 'ideas' of the Dead amount to some kind of something. Like Ayn Rand fans who think she's a philosopher, because they've never read any proper philosophy.

There is nothing the Dead ever did that matches four bars of Levon Helm's drumming

Yeah, he's a killer drummer and has a great voice too.

But I was focusing on the songs because the main criticism of the Dead is that their music was nothing but a bunch of stoned aimless noodling. And there's certainly a lot of that stuff. Personally I don't care for it and don't listen to it. As I said upthread 5 years ago, I think the conventional wisdom about the band is backwards. The live stuff is pretty tedious but they had a good run of 4 or 5 classic albums with some really great songs. I just don't get how people can ignore that. Sure some live bootleg from 1978 is going to be boring as hell. Yeah, they're a bunch of smelly beardo hippies with annoying fans. But if you like any similar music at all (west coast psych, country rock) and can't recognize that the Dead recorded some great stuff that easily stands up to their contemporaries, then I think you're blinded by a prejudice against their fans, or you simply haven't heard the good stuff. As I'm sure I've said elsewhere here before, I ignored the Dead for ages and bought tons of lame third rate psych and garage reissues before realizing that super obvious stuff like the Dead was actually great.

I reckon it's the opposite prob with deadheads: they haven't heard enough other music - or listened properly - and imagine the tepid 'ideas' of the Dead amount to some kind of something.

Also, I think that's probably true in the general population, with any random deadhead you might meet. But I think the opposite is probably true among ILMers. The default stance is to dislike and avoid the Dead, so it actually might be the people who have already gone through everything else who eventually make their way to the Dead. That seems to be borne out by some of the accounts in this thread of people who gradually got around to liking them.

Anthem of the Sun and Aoxomoxoa aren't my favorite psych albums but they're probably in my top 50 or maybe top 100. And I like that kind of music enough to have an appetite for the stuff that's way down the list. Workingman's Dead and American Beauty on the other hand are probably in my top 10 for country rock. Or at least one of the two. But I'll admit that's an area where I haven't dug too deep.

Europe 72 def sounds like the Band but better. Album that American Beauty most reminds me of is After the Gold Rush, esp its second side...

The Band, like the Dead, dropped off fast after a couple albums, as a studio entity at least. Live, it kept kicking for a while. I guess I just like the musical personality of the Band and its players better than the Dead, Garcia aside, whom I've always liked as a guitarist.

ppl seem ready to rep for everything up to and including 'terrapin station', i think. on the other hand, i'm not really convinced it's true of the band, either ...

i think i like the idea of levon helm or of garth hudson more than i do pigpen or phil lesh. but i like the three-percussionists-paying-various-levels-of-attention-plus-bassist-refuses-play-a-bassline thing that's the backbone of '68-'71 dead a lot; the band's live setup being, let's say, less well documented, i'm not sure i can say anything about them as an ensemble outside of the (fairly worked-over) studio settings

otoh i think i like the idea of garcia a lot more than that of robbie robertson, but robertson's concise statements on 'king harvest' or whatever are kind of jaw-dropping for me in a way that garcia doesn't do. or have a focus that garcia playing around 'dark star' or 'morning dew' for 15 minutes doesn't. but, i mean, that's kind of an obvious thing to say.

the dead are one of those acts that when you listen to them you can easily listen to them for a week and snap into the mindset of people who listen to nothing but, i think. like the fall.

http://youtu.be/gvv970ocLaM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvv970ocLaM

What Dead stuff do you like Bill Magill?

― music loves drugs (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:26 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Sorry Drugs, i cut out of this discussion. I love a lot of the '69/'70 stuff, Live Dead, Harpur, though Ive never been a big Pigpen guy (except Lovelight). My other favorite years are '72 (like many others, Europe'72 was an initial favorite), '74 (esp. the Boston show) and '77 (it's to the point of cliche, but the Cornell thing is fucking awesome, it's recorded so well too). After that, i kind of lose the plot.

There is nothing the Dead ever did that matches four bars of Levon Helm's drumming

hey can people participating in interesting music discussions stop saying stupid shit like "Bach's nose hairs wrote better music than Mick Jagger's entire family"? trope has been played out for at least 30 years.

The Band, like the Dead, dropped off fast after a couple albums, as a studio entity at least.
probably would've agreed with you until recently, but I've been digging into some of the post-classic eras of both of these bands, and there is plenty of good stuff. that might be low expectations talking, to some extent.

Someone said up there that the like of me hadn't heard enough Dead and were posing - I reckon it's the opposite prob with deadheads: they haven't heard enough other music - or listened properly - and imagine the tepid 'ideas' of the Dead amount to some kind of something. Like Ayn Rand fans who think she's a philosopher, because they've never read any proper philosophy.

lol I see the rest of your post is riddled with I-don't-actually-have-an-argument-so-I-condescend garbage, never mind - when you want to actually talk about music with people who've doubtless heard & understood as much of it as you have, come back to this thread, til then I think everybody gets it - you don't dig the Grateful Dead and you think people who have don't have your penetrating insight into music - cool, gotcha - now fuck off

hey can people participating in interesting music discussions stop saying stupid shit like "Bach's nose hairs wrote better music than Mick Jagger's entire family"? trope has been played out for at least 30 years.

If there was an interesting music discussion on ILM we could find out. #jokes bruv

lol

But your point is otm, this "your team sucks, my team will make the playoffs" shit is useless.

the Dead suck
ILM sucks
you suck

^^^ multiple choice

they haven't heard enough other music - or listened properly - and imagine the tepid 'ideas' of the Dead amount to some kind of something.

this does describe my relationship with Phish between 1993 and 1999 though. not to disparage phish as much as to disparage the lack of breadth in my listening habits at the time.

i've said it before, but a really good overview of everything good about the dead can be found on the what a long strange trip its been double lp. it definitely worked for me when i was 16. i had never listened to them and i bought that and dead set and was immediately a fan of the songs on there.