★ The Weeknd ★ What You Need ★

lex is veering into former-deej territory w/ this R&B inferiority complex

that's what i was saying

and i can't help it if yr taste fits an existing aesthetic

xp

oh ok i thought you liked the-dream,

the point stands re: you framing artists as pitchfork artists or non-pitchfork artists

i don't really get the big deal here either cuz i don't think the weeknd do any of those things particularly well either

okay, sure i mean i dont care if you 'like' these dudes but obv theyre working with a different toolkit than marsha ambrosiu. i dont even think its really worth interrogating this stuff now either - certain methodologies speak to certain audiences better for a host of reasons, also certain methodolgies may be 'better' @ evoking some moments or emotions.

also i guess im p big fan of 'kandi koated' mb not vocally on ilm but its... no1 is pretending she doesnt exist

btw can we get a thread title change, its really bugging me

also honestly i dont know how to say this in a nice way but your tendency to dismiss music that wants to convey reflectiveness or wistfulness or spiritual yearning as 'indie' and 'pathetic' is both sad and creepy

i like a lot of reflective and wistful music

suzanne vega

memoirs of an imperfect angel

kompakt
nicolas jaar
guido

No idea what REAL R&B means, especially as the acts Lex talks about are themselves a mutation of the original form. Why is it okay for them to take the genre into new places, but not, say, the Weeknd?

well the weeknd isn't taking the genre into new places -- i think the one thing that's good about the weeknd is that it's easy to see exactly how we've ended up at this sound -- the album feels to me like something that should be happening right now -- not that that makes it better/worse, but they certainly aren't taking r&b to new places, unless you consider a beach house sample to be "new places"

also i gotta say that if you want to make the argument that weeknd is r&b for pp that don't listen to r&b, ilm of all places is probably not that place

also i gotta say that if you want to make the argument that weeknd is r&b for pp that don't listen to r&b, ilm of all places is probably not that place

― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:09 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

^^^THIS. Like, Lex, I'm never totally unsympathetic to your concerns in these arguments but you always have this tendency to say "this is like music I like but for people who read pitchfork OH LORD WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THE REAL [RAP/R&B/DANCE/ELECTRONICA/WHATEVER] and....usually those of us who are boosting the aforementioned "fake" stuff are people who are totally on your side when it comes to Dirty Money or The-Dream or Electrik Red or Nights Slugs or Jazmine or even K. Michelle.

Part of me feels there's an interesting discussion to be had about the stuff plax brought up re: How to Dress Well and this and the discursive ways that they interact with chartpop, R&B, etc., but it can't even happen without everyone involved needing to prove their credentials as people who value "Real R&B" and value it more than whatever we're discussing - as though they do the same things, or as though we like them for the same reasons.

Sorry if that came off overly negative. I wasn't trying to attack you personally, it's just...taken as read, I guess, that you will probably find this sort of music HORRIBLY OFFENSIVE to your sensibilities, but enjoyment of music isn't a war or a zero-sum game, and it's in fact possible for some of us to like both. You reading these threads is sort of like me following Sarah Palin on Twitter. I *know* it's only going to piss me off and then I get to rant and be self-righteous. Which is nice, I suppose, but not as productive as it could be.

At any rate, I'm not sold on the entire thing yet, but "What You Need" is gorgeous and "Wicked Games" is p awesome also.

Also, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BSnOeMb6_o

i honestly have no idea how How to dress Well is connected to this or r'n'b in the least, besides the guy namedropping keith sweat every other question. once again, haven't heard the album yet, but from the few songs i've heard, just sounds like ambient indie w/falsetto singing. does falsetto always = soul?

and for how many times people namedrop them here, there's no thread on them?

i think i like how to dress well more than i like weekend

yes on weekend I dress well very much all the times thank you

weeknd is pretty good but this Marsha ambrosias album is next level

weeknd is kinda samey and one note, maybe I should listen to it more

dayo do you like brightblack morning light

haha no i want to defend these dudes but i know theres no point, its just irksome. @ some point to i think ppl like lex and deej just need to stop tryna listen to things they dont have the ears/vocabulary/mindset for instead of punishing us w/ their opinions abt

― r u levelled up? (Lamp), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:08 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

yeah, this is unfairly condescending, i have the fucking 'ears/vocabulary/mindset' to get this, i fucking understand what they're 'going for' & ive been listening to this milieu for years dude. just because someone disagrees w/ you doesnt mean that they dont 'get it.' i mean andy k said hes not feeling this stuff either & you certainly cant accuse him of not 'getting it' when it comes to a) music that is about 'texture & mood' or b) R&B

of course i dont think u can say that about me either but hes prob a less controversial example

to all you dudes accusing me of it, im certainly not someone arguing that this is wack compared to 'real R&B' & its not an authenticity issue for me at all. i also dont know what dayo is talking abt w/r/t 'old deej' & R&B either

i repped for effing ariel pink & argued w/ lex for ages abt it or some other indie thing -- for me, if the songwriting is tight or interesting, if i think there's something novel going on, im into it. my problem w/ this shit is it sounds p generic & this supposedly interesting mood & texture dont sound v novel or interesting to me. this is basically 'electrosoul like jamie lidell' part 1000 as far as i can tell.

i listened to the entire thing on my way home & i think 'the morning' is the only song that really works well, because it actually bothers to have a worthwhile hook. they have some creative & interesting ideas to explore throughout -- i like the vocal sample, and later on the guitar-driven rhythm on 'the party & the afterparty.' for example. but yeah, for the most part the lyrics are stilted & awkward, the 'novel textures' arent nearly as novel as they think they are, the songwriting lacks hooks. this stuff imo doesnt function the way its intended most of the time.

heres something that i think is fair w/r/t R&B: I think its fair to judge music that has so many signifiers of R&B by comparing it w/ past examples of R&B. that doesnt mean im arguing whether its 'real' or 'fake' R&B at all -- im merely evaluating it by the same criteria that i would, say, teedra moses (who fwiw does a really great job w/ both songwriting AND cultivating a unique mood/textures etc)(or her producers do)
i also think the trey songz track i mentioned upthread is stronger than anything on this record

this isnt because these songs are 'more real.' its because i find the performances a lot more effective at conveying emotion/sexiness/a multitude of other feelings

will agree that "the morning" is the best track by a mile

i dont begrudge anyone who likes this record, fwiw. this is all about 'taste' in the end

but belittling ppl & painting me w/ a lexian brush is a bit ott

i briefly listened to this earlier and it sounded like something i might like. i didn't realise anyone else loved 'unfortunate' - so good

I think its fair to judge music that has so many signifiers of R&B by comparing it w/ past examples of R&B

yeah exactly - no one's actually made a case for what the weeknd are doing yet, all you've said is "well it's not like r&b at all!" - when i compare it to real r&b i'm saying it doesn't convey mood or emotion as well. and i've also compared it to more chillwavey acts too, and i've also said it doesn't convey mood or emotion as well as them either, so dismissing my criticisms as "it's just not lex's thing" doesn't wash - this is just shitty music that takes a bunch of signifiers that other people are presently doing a whole lot better, and doesn't do anything interesting with them

and given that i've loved a whole bunch of artists recontextualising r&b into different situations and aesthetics of late - kingdom, nguzunguzu, girl unit most obviously, but it seems like every electronic mix i hear nowadays is honour-bound to drop an old r&b track in somewhere - it's not like i'm remotely saying that ONLY REAL R&B COUNTS - it's that some people do it better than others

to all you dudes accusing me of it, im certainly not someone arguing that this is wack compared to 'real R&B' & its not an authenticity issue for me at all. i also dont know what dayo is talking abt w/r/t 'old deej' & R&B either

lol if you can't see the similarities
between lex's 'can't believe ppl are into this when there's so much Real R&B out there' and what you do wit goon rap then I don't even

also meant old deej because it seems d-40 is a more chilled out poster but feel free to prove me wrong

(like, you could the beat for "fall for your type" on this album and you would hardly be able to tell)

totally. i like the sound of this weeknd mixtape. to me it sounds closer to drake's r&b stuff and trey songz (ppl who like this should check out the 'anticipation' mixtape) than the-dream (although the lyrics are clearly terius influenced "got the walls kicking like they 6 months pregnant" lol)

i understand where the genre-defensiveness comes from but i don't even know anything about this guy? how comes it's a "pitchfork thing"? regardless maybe it's not as good as trey or whatever but that doesn't mean there's not something to enjoy here. so often on ilm things seem to end up like playing artist top trumps. " x > y so therefore never bring up y again unless you want to get into another argument about how x > y".

between lex's 'can't believe ppl are into this when there's so much Real R&B out there' and what you do wit goon rap then I don't even

also meant old deej because it seems d-40 is a more chilled out poster but feel free to prove me wrong

― dayo, Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:22 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what do i 'do' w/ goon rap, do tell

*drama alarm*

i dont say what i listen to is more 'real' than anything else. i do make arguments about why music i like seems better / more significant or w/e but i dont know of any single time ive ever claimed an act is less 'real' than another one

& in fact i do embrace the artifice of certain pop rap acts regularly so

lol

okay I'll break it down for you

...

seems to me that you and lex are both music critics who truck in genres that, in the grand scheme of music criticism, seem to be marginalized & overlooked. or at least, both you and lex spend a lot of time complaining about 'mainstream' coverage of your specialist genres by sites like pitchfork, how they privilege the wrong aspects, the wrong artists, how their aesthetics don't plug into your framework.

anyway seems to me that the weeknd have a 'sound' that some people on this board like, people who don't spend all their time listening to modern R&B, or at least not to the extent that the lex does. and so maybe these people enjoy listening to the weeknd precisely because they are not burdened by the baggage that someone like lex brings to the table! maybe the weeknd pushes certain buttons for them, buttons that are not valuable to the lex. and that's okay. coming in this thread and being all "pitchfork blah blah blah hate indie weakling pathetic trey songz" is kinda the equivalent of the dude in high school who pulls you out and says "you're listening to green day? GREEN DAY? don't you know there are 100 bands that are more punk than GREEN DAY?"

sometimes you just wanna listen to green day.

if you're asking if i see why lex's rhetoric makes it harder to listen to artists he likes sometimes, yes i do & i made that pt in the jazmine sullivan vs janelle monae debates

there were jazmine sullivan vs. janelle monae debates?

welcome to ilx lol

seems to me that you and lex are both music critics who truck in genres that, in the grand scheme of music criticism, seem to be marginalized & overlooked. or at least, both you and lex spend a lot of time complaining about 'mainstream' coverage of your specialist genres by sites like pitchfork, how they privilege the wrong aspects, the wrong artists, how their aesthetics don't plug into your framework.

fwiw i agree/disagree w/ how this is framed. or i think there needs to be some nuance. 'mainstream' sites are, in fact, specialist music sites w/ disproportionate influence on discourse. theres nothing really 'specialist' about the genres lex or i talk abt, except to the extent that theres not a history of critical framework around them to the extent it exists for other genres. as a result, the dominant stories about these genrescome from people not as familiar w/ the history and aesthetic value systems that have helped develop these genres. so i spend a lot of time trying to identify how these values are manifested in the music, then track those backwards into stories about how the music has developed. a project like this requires a certain amount of irreverence -- 'fake' stuff is always influencing 'real', or stuff i dont care for is often impacting stuff i do like.

regardless, framing this as a 'real'/'fake' thing the way lex often does is misleading & unhelpful. it becomes its own ideology. but just as youre free to dismiss my arguments about why the jacka is a great rapper (or whoever) im certainly free to dismiss the weeknd as being particularly interesting in the grand scheme of things no?

no one's actually made a case for what the weeknd are doing yet, all you've said is "well it's not like r&b at all!"

The primary appeal for me, as someone who listens to modern R&B more than anything else these days, is good slow jams are hard to pull off, and I think this album pulls them off. The guy's got a nice voice, and most of these tracks really do have huge hooks.

What it offers that other R&B doesn't, of course, is a much broader palette: more guitars, odder samples, glitchy beats, Souxsie and the Banshees-appropriated choruses. Some of that stuff works better than others—I particularly enjoy how hard some of these beats grind; it really hits home the angst—but I find most of it an interesting change of pace.

Also, some of the lyrics that are initially off-putting begin to make more sense over the course of an album. There's a nice, karmic balance over these nine tracks; every high is followed by a come down, every party by a morning after, every indulgence by a regret. The singer ultimately isn't quite the vain jerk he can come across as in small exposures; there's some depth to this songwriting.

^good post

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2011/03/the_weeknd_frank_ocean.php

i'm talking about evan's post, to be clear

all this stuff just feels to me like people who are so overly wary of industry machinery that they readily embrace other kinds of marketing and mythmaking -- people that don't give 2 shit about any new major label R&B album jump all over something that was shelved by Def Jam and uploaded to the artist's tumblr or is released by a mysterious anonymous collective

surprised that vv article was the first comparison to odd future tbh

xp otm, explains why theyres so much noise abt OF as well...much of which isnt talking abt the music. victory of new marketing

evan's post is good except i still dont get what 'huge hooks' hes talking about