To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

you could argue that a lot of offensive material has no reasonable non-offensive substitutes, but I'm finding this sort of thing less and less to be the case. for example, someone told me skrewdriver sounded just like korn

I probably find it easier to listen to music by people with objectionable beliefs where there's less of a requirement that i engage on a personal level with the lyricist. For me, Morrissey's music doesn't work in isolation - it needs me to form a bond with him that i'm simply not capable of doing because i find him a repellent individual. That's not really the case with Beenie Man or Busy Signal, even though their viewpoints are objectively far more unacceptable. I've always been deeply conflicted over dancehall, though, and would never buy albums by deeply homophobic acts or see them in concert. Fundamentally, i can't stop loving their music. It's just not possible - it's a hard-wired response. I'll dance to it but i can choose not to financially back it. The same goes for Phil Anselmo or Brigitte Bardot.

Where hip-hop is concerned, i use a complicated combination of sophistry and hypocrisy to keep things ticking over.

draw the line somewhere north of questionnaires for buskers.

which could easily be read as an endorsement

I really don't hear this at all, sorry. Not to derail this thread into Cale territory but that whole song is a very damning indictment of the chummy, bootlicking, social climbing nature of British fascism - "chopping down the people where they stand" etc. Just goes to show how much is open to interpretation I guess

xp

xpost Well no, RAC and NSBM are just shitty music. Those cases are too easy. We wouldn't even know about those bands if not for the extreme politics.

what if lots of ppl buying a person's ethically questionable work, say a musician, enables that person to continue making and releasing questionable content to the public-- when, had ppl held off paying, they would "go out of business," in a sense?

if the person's "ethically questionable" work is well made and compelling in its own right, by all means it is worthy of being supported. Wilde again.

see the problem with Skrewdriver isn't really that their racist, it's that their racism overwhelms their work to such an extent that it renders it totally shitty. Because they place their political agenda above their aesthetic one. Politics and aesthetics can be married in very effective and interesting and engaging ways. Skrewdriver, however, was not capable of this.

I can still go back and listen to old Pantera knowing that Anselmo is a fucking idiot. If I lost my Cowboys From Hell CD, I'd probably go buy a new one and not have that weigh heavily on my conscience. (But there's also the rest of the band, Dimebag, I dunno)

Gene Simmons skeeves me out wrt the way he talks about women but I have loved Kiss since I was 10 years old. Motley Crue showed soft porn at the last show I went to, I will never make the mistake of seeing them live again but I still love their first album.

I don't know where the line is. I think it changes depending on my relationship with the band/artist, whether or not I can rationalize it (and I don't say that meaning it's a good way to be, I'm just admitting it now so as not get called out on it), and whether their view affects how I relate to the music.

I don't know if I'm even saying what I mean here, sorry I'm all over the place

xp

Skrewdriver fans might disagree. It would be really lucky if it just happened that every artist with actively hateful politics made bad art.

never got round to checking it m'self but 'pre-racist Skrewdriver' has pretty solid cult status among your more recrod collectory-y/KBD type punk enthusiasts

I think it's generally agreed that later on their music reflected the quality of their political thought, but again I wouldn't know

Skrewdriver fans might disagree

whether or not there are any Skrewdriver fans who are not card-carrying neonazi sympathizers tells you all you need to know. As a Jew I can still marvel at some of the aesthetic decisions of the Nazis. But Skrewdriver? gtfo

I don't think DJ Mencap's info contradicts my position at all, fwiw.

what I'm saying is that you seem to want to say "this isn't an issue at all because any artist with wholly hateful beliefs makes terrible art" and I don't see that this is necessarily true

xp "In future please bear in mind/Don't see clear don't see far" seems more like a criticism of those who turned on Powell but the broader point is that some lyrics bother me - and that's good, music should sometimes bother me - my first reaction is not to ban them.

In the case of certain Morrissey records or 70s Ray Davies, my aversion to certain political ideas is inseparable from my aversion to the pinched, misanthopy behind them. Political and aesthetic considerations aren't inseparable - they can be intertwined even in the tone of voice.

the thorough logic of ilxor's poll choices is funny because i don't know anyone who actually abides by a hard and fast rule when it comes to even...thinking about artists w/problematic views, let alone buying their music. we're all pretty inconsistent and illogical about it, i think.

it actually feels more dishonest when i take the moral high ground against, say, chris brown or odd future, knowing that i listen to artists who've done or said worse. homophobic dancehall is even easier to ignore given that in the UK it's so easy to follow dancehall but never come into direct contact with that side of it - what UK dancehall DJ would play those songs?

think it's important not to just shrug this off even - especially if you're a fan - but not to the extent that you end up castigating every rapper for saying "bitch" or something. but praising odd future's lyrics as ~youthful energy~ isn't much better. think it's also important to be honest about when the amorality is the appeal and why - like, i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it. once you admit that to yourself, as i said, it feels dishonest taking any sort of moral high ground. as a journalist there's no way you can sweep the more unpleasant stuff under the rug - idk it's hard to justify though, why would i take beenie man to task over homophobia or odd future over rape, but wouldn't even think of asking t.i. about violence?

that post is totally confused but that's pretty much reflective of the fact that i have no consistent position on this matter that would hold up to logical scrutiny at all.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Pi-oW7O-9M/THxEnBrmhVI/AAAAAAAAAF4/_AD9VVan7Q8/s320/Not+again.jpg

(i think withholding financial support is probably the best "solution" to loving the music but finding the message repugnant)

thankyou for your pertinent and thoughtful contribution to the thread, siegbran

didn't this thread happen a few months ago? i guess that one was just racism based, whereas with this one people can get really really angry with each other about other isms.

I agree with all of what lex said, really. What bothers me about this discussion is the idea that people can hold a consistent, honest position on this stuff - I think that's a misguided belief and I think it's often self-justifying in a way that isn't necessary.

otm

Thank you for rehashing the exact same discussion once again, I'm sure we can finally solve this dilemma once and for all, so we can all sleep safely.

"Welcome back to Chipping and Sodbury
You can have another chance
It must all seem like second nature
Chopping down the people where they stand
According to the latest score
Mr. Enoch Powell is a falling star"

I cannot understand how anyone could read these lines as "John Cale approves of Enoch Powell" - he's describing people who are very, very clearly not avant garde welsh musicians

the constant reiteration that the middle class LA teenagers in You-Know-What continue to spout homophobic and misogynistic nonsense, both on record and off, and that the journalistic community (not to mention their fans) chalk it up to 'they just don't give a fuck'

I feel like there's a widespread addiction to a certain myth/narrative about fresh new music -- the smart-ass teenagers who "just don't give a fuck," and/or people's own teenage experiences of discovering something that felt shocking and naughty -- that's creating a total feedback loop around this act.

It's hard to unpack, though -- when I finally ran up against writing about them, I filed something I considered highly skeptical, but by the time it went up, the context had gotten changed and it just looked like a rave.

"this isn't an issue at all because any artist with wholly hateful beliefs makes terrible art" and I don't see that this is necessarily true

no this isn't true at all. I was just giving a specific example of why Skrewdriver suck - which is not because they're racist, but because they're racism overwhelms their art to a degree that makes it bad. It is a poorly conceived and executed aesthetic, with no depth, no subtlety, no artistry.

Ice Cube espouses some "wholly hateful beliefs" about women, homosexuals, Koreans, and Jews (he also has some unflattering things to say about white people) on Death Certificate, but I think that is also one of the best rap albums ever made, even if I do skip "Black Korea" every time. The reason is that the work functions so well as a whole and is so beautifully executed - the beats, the rhymes, the overarching concept, the degree to which it accurately reflected the west coast's black community at the time, the debates it provoked, the level of detail - it is a very deeply absorbing work, you can get lost in it.

xp

Shall we discuss tomorrow whether rap can be considered music, or merely talking over someone else's music?

xpost

So out of interest Shakey, would an artist's politics ever stop you from buying their work if you thought it was good enough?

I can't think of any instance where it has...

I mean Mel Gibson stopped making decent movies in 1981 so that was a pretty easy decision for me to make lol

siegbran you don't have to read this if you don't want to, i don't think anyone's intending to "solve" anything if that makes you feel better. also i guess i didn't see the discussion a month ago, wherever it was.

if i have any hardline position on anything to do with this, it's being equally annoyed by a) people who know nothing about the history or context of the genre moralising and finger-wagging from outside without even trying to engage with it, b) the widespread addiction to a certain myth/narrative about fresh new music -- the smart-ass teenagers who "just don't give a fuck," and/or people's own teenage experiences of discovering something that felt shocking and naughty as nabisco put it, c) people who just shrug off the elements of misogyny/homophobia/whatever and refuse to engage with the fact that they're problematic at all (even if they may not be problematic for you as a listener)

like all three of those stances are so inadequate

even if I do skip "Black Korea" every time.

Right. That's what I mean.

iatee, I think you've swayed me re: that Powell line, though I don't think it's impossible to read it the other way.

I'm not going to participate in this thread because I don't really have anything to contribute but wanted to share that during the moment when I thought "yeah, I wanna get into that" I went on a brief GIS and came up w/this

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/365161/clue9.gif

out of curiousity what's the way you were reading it? I've never read that song as anything but 'john cale is describing someone who he is completely disgusted by'

'So save yourselves for the hounds of hell
They can have you all to themselves
Since the fashion now is to give away
All the things you love so well'

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

haha ok i dunno why this surprised me

i always assumed u were a kinda music school dude lex, cuz most ppl i know w/ similar tastes to yours have either a classical background, or wanted to be a pop star in their teens so took singing lessons etc.....aesthetically they will love something like cassie or clipse w/ neat production and clean lines, but if you allude to the outré lyrical content of thug rap etc, it's like 'i don't even hear that'

I don't think people who actually hold abhorrent beliefs are capable of making interesting or novel art, but I do think people who are insane are capable of making interesting art, and sometimes this insanity manifests as abhorrent beliefs, which is why I had such high hopes for Varg, but I guess he's just a sane jerk.

xpost I've never really taken the time to unpack that song TBH, so it's entirely possible I read it wrong but then I don't think it's a particularly clear lyric. I find it hard to place both the narrator and the character he's addressing.

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

*Imagines Lex as a teenage Pantera fan*

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

^^^ <3 <3 <3

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

Dimebag guitar solo

nakhchivan i've always had a preference for ignorant southern crunk shit over poetic serious-faced storytelling (this is why i like crime mob better than wu-tang clan)

you are classically trained, lex?

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

Regarding Morrissey, are there any possible racist lyrics of his than "Bengali in Platforms"?

Sure, I know some fans of black music tend to interpret "Panic" as an attack on black music, but this is bullshit for two reasons:
a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that.
b) The lyrics of "Panic", to me, sounds more like an attack on mid 80s radio DJs than an attack on club DJs or club culture. It is simply an attack of the majority of the music that was popular at the time, which mdid include some dance/R&B music, but also a lot of other styles.

lol no, i went to a specialist music school and played the piano badly but i wasn't one of the real musicians - hanging out with them and being in that environment was something i think benefited me though (at least prevented me from being one of those critics who misuse basic theory terms like "coda" and "time signature")

xp

geir bomb

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

yeah i guess i'm just not a huge fan or particularly knowledgeable about them, and they're one of those acts where the cult around them is so strong that being a mere casual fan makes you feel like you're a hater sometimes - or at least that there's something you really don't get

ya yr background makes sense

a friend of mine w/ perfect pitch, former vln/piano prodge seems to think ppl who like noisy/distorted shit are actually insane

she doesn't like crunk tho

(he also has some unflattering things to say about white people)

^^new board description