JAW ON THE FLOOR: Starbucks to Release Sonic Youth Celebrity Compilation (WTF)

I don't think Starbuck's is cool and avoid it as much as possible. Which is fairly easy since I don't drink coffee. Sonic Youth can do whatever they want - what do I care - but I'm not gonna buy some Starbuck's comp CD.

(iow Tracer OTM)

Bob, you sure are obsessed with stuff like "marketing" and "demographics" for someone up on such a high horse about a corporate coffee chain. Are you disappointed in Sonic Youth's association with Starbucks because of the cognitive dissonance with their public image as lefty indie deities, or do you actually see doing a one-off Starbucks-sponsored compilation as some huge ethical departure for a band that's been signed to a major label for nearly 2 decades?

FWIW I have never detected an iota of leftism in Sonic Youth's music, I don't know where people get that.

Alex in case you've forgotten, Starbuck's is a lowest-common-denominator, homogenized, blandly corporate take on what was once an independent, locally-owned, lively phenomenon: the coffee shop.

considering how much business they've got out of places that had never seen nor heard of a coffee shop, how true is this? and their prices are no different round my way

FWIW I have never detected an iota of leftism in Sonic Youth's music, I don't know where people get that.

Most of Dirty (Youth Against Fascism etc)

to the indie rock market segment (certain college kids, ilxors, etc), SY are an attractive brand. To the same market segment, Starbucks are a crap brand

This seems unimpeachably kinda-true, and yet I get absolutely ZERO sense that Starbucks is looking to nice up its hip brand image with SY product; mostly I get the sense that I am freaking old and SY have been institutionalized enough as a revered middle-to-highbrow music staple that they have "ascended" to coffeeshop placement.

The trick, and the problem with the quote above, is that SY are already FINE with the actual "indie audience," especially the segment that's gonna go around sneering about Starbucks and shit: hence the perfectly sensible move of selling a COMPILATION to people who stop in for a quick coffee without feeling like it has some giant bearing on their coolness, cred, or ethics, and are like "oh yeah, Sonic Youth, I like them okay," and whose mental brand notion of SY (revered arty clever important band) might actually be perfectly in line with their feelings about going to coffee shops

considering how much business they've got out of places that had never seen nor heard of a coffee shop, how true is this? and their prices are no different round my way

having worked in coffee shops when Starbuck's was in its initial ascendancy I can verify that this is absolutely true, and that Starbucks crushed/put out of business several local coffee shops in my college town.

also SY's feminist-themed stuff (esp. early on) has obvious ties to trad lefty identity politics

"Use the word... FUCK"

I.e., the indie-rock market segment does not consist of "certain college kids and ILXors," it consists in good part of people who enjoyed Garden State and whatnot

xpost but Starbucks also injected the whole notion of coffeeshops into places that didn't have them; part of their early spread really did have to do with the whole notion of foamy espresso concoctions being rare and alluring to people, and then being converted into like daily purchases

'crushed'?? cmon this isn't the mafia, more people bought starbucks. what are you going to do??

^^^ not necessarily true, dude

"survived competition" /= "sold more"

"I believe Anita Hill" said with the most bratty, sarcastic sneer imaginable and then saying "It's the song I hate" immediately afterwards never really did it for me.

Neither did the rest of their words and images, to be honest. They made some great noise once, though.

its just a figure of speech. there was a competitive market in the local economy, and Starbucks won. I could go into a host of reasons why locally owned and locally operated businesses are preferable to international corporate conglomerate operations, but I'm pretty sure everyone here already a) knows those arguments and b) doesn't care

x-post

"foamy espresso concoctions" = coffee

You will find that most places calling themselves coffee shops sold this. Even little Southern towns had these. Poetry readings, alt-weeklies from the nearest burg, etc.

Is Starbucks really more expensive than most local coffee shops? The crushing local business thing is indisputable though and they aren't a nice company, no doubt. But Universal isn't a nice company either. Walmart isn't a nice company. Borders isn't a nice company. Multinationals suck, no doubt, but anyway who is going to base by a Sonic Youth CD on whether it comes out on DGC or Starbucks is just being silly.

exactly

Re Alex's defense of Starbucks: I've heard they're a good employer at both the corporate and the retail levels. Then again, I've also heard they're brutally anticompetitive bastards in the Wal-Mart mold. So my wildly inexpert take on Starbucks is that they're neither good nor bad but partially both, like so many other things. Also that their coffee is okayish, better than what you get in a lot of other places, but nothing great. And I kinda hate 'em cuz they feel like malls and malls make me terribly, terribly depressed. Always have, even when I was a kid. Plus the mushroom propagation of Starbucks always seems to go hand in hand with the mushroom propagation of really shitty condos, but I think I covered that.

Re gff's post before last: I'm not sure any realistic answer would convince anyone. My suspicion is that the only problem here, the reason for the hooting and hollering, is the basic incompatibility of Starbucks of SY (in terms of their cultural labeling) in some people's minds. I haven't got far with that line of argument, so you might wanna take it with a grain of salt.

Agree w/ Nabisco about the broadness of the contemporary indie-rock market. So I guess I oughtta differentiate between Indie Rock Classic (80s "corporate rock still sucks" die-hards) and New Indie Rock (nice people who like nice music made by nice people). IRC folks are the ones with their nuts in a bunch. NIRs are cool with Starbucks in the first place.

Starbucks also injected the whole notion of coffeeshops into places that didn't have them; part of their early spread really did have to do with the whole notion of foamy espresso concoctions being rare and alluring to people, and then being converted into like daily purchases

they weren't that rare. even big rapids had an independent coffee shop with lattes and espresso. I saw a few shows there!

I've heard they're a good employer at both the corporate and the retail levels.

they're anti-union, if I'm not mistaken

What has always amazed me about Starbucks is that they will charge double for a cup of coffee and then EXPECT YOU TO PUT YOUR OWN MILK AND SUGAR IN IT.

FUCK

YOU

yeah, even my piece-of-shit homogenized, nowhere-near-anything-interesting soCal suburb had a couple

x-post

I MEAN GODDAMN YOU JUST PUT WHIPPED CREAM, MELTED CARAMEL AND HEATED, FROTHED MILK IN MY FREAKING COFFEE BUT A LITTLE SUGAR ISN'T IN YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION??

XPOST I'M GOING HOME MY HEAD IS ABOUT TO EXPLODE FROM THIS TRIPLE CARAMEL MOCHIATTO

"Good employer" can be measured lots of ways. I mean in terms of pay, benefits & workplace culture vs. other comparable business. Union thing is another matter.

if starbucks crushed independent coffee shops, why are there still like 8 zillion independent coffee shops?

i never thought of sonic youth as particularly "rebellious" or whatever, they are more like the grateful dead to me, this sort of institution that has an enduring cult and a sort of self-contained little musical world and style that they've mined to greater or less success for a long time...they've always seemed exceedingly careerist to me.

The parts where Starbucks succeeded like mad, competition-wise, were (a) realizing they could create a market of people who wanted to grab coffee drinks on the go that would absolutely DWARF the market of people who wanted to spend time in pleasant coffeeshops, and (b) realizing that the world was becoming increasingly like an airport, in cities and small towns alike, and happily meshing into a food-court society would conquer attempts to offer people a break from it

Tracer I am aware that Euro-style coffee drinks were available in the US before Starbucks, but I can tell you from personal experience than you are overestimating their presence in much of America: in the place I grew up (100,000 people!) the first trad coffeeshop I ever encountered was across town, and when I moved to a smaller Midwestern town (in 1993!) there was no coffeeshop whatever (until some guys moved from Colorado and started one), and the people in these places did not have knowledge of such drinks much in their heads (except maybe as nice-restaurant after-dinner items) until coffee chains converted them into quick on-the-go daily staples

ha, xpost, Quantum, there was Shaman's Bluff, yes -- and I played a crapload of shows there -- but that started right when I moved there, before that I don't believe there was ANYthing, except maybe some kind of coffee cart / cafe on campus!

(Hahaha also I'm pretty sure Shaman's folded a year or two after I left? I think it existed solely to make that town great for me / allow me to open for Wally Pleasant)

Across town! Oh noes!

Coolness, marketing, and images aside, I'd just like to point out that one of the members of Sonic Youth narrated a film about the dangers and pitfalls and general fucked-upedness of corporate influence on/commodification of music:
http://www.mediaed.org/videos/CommercialismPoliticsAndMedia/MoneyForNothing

Tracer: I think they'd put the milk in for you if you calmed the fuck down and asked nice. Pretend you have a disability and can't touch things.

As far as the "crushed independent coffee shops" thing goes, Starbucks are and have been sued for just that (not terribly successfully, but they tend to have far deeper pockets than the average mom & pop). Starbucks' corporate strategy involves intentionally opening too many shops for a region to support, simply to drive out competition. They have the resources to rent, build out, staff and close "suicide" operations simply to reduce traffic at competing independents. Or so I've read...

Coolness, marketing, and images aside, I'd just like to point out that one of the members of Sonic Youth narrated a film about the dangers and pitfalls and general fucked-upedness of corporate influence on/commodification of music:
http://www.mediaed.org/videos/CommercialismPoliticsAndMedia/MoneyForNothing

-- Sara Sara Sara, Thursday, December 6, 2007 6:56 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

are are are you you you going going going to to to link link link to to to that that that website website website every every every day day day???

nabisco OTM; there was nothing like a "coffee shop" in my home town until approx. 1998. Before then, everyone went to Perkins.

Tracer in a western town of 100,000 people "across town" is like ... this is like if you lived on Soho and someone said "there are coffeeshops everywhere, there's one in Astoria!"

Yes yes yes. Because for whatever reason the link between SY and that film has been pointed out by exactly two people, and the link between SY and "omg I loved Dirty in college, don't hate!" has been pretty much covered.

Starbucks does charge a bit more for their coffee than most independent places, although I get riled sometimes when people complain about "FIVE DOLLAR coffees!!!" because they're only $5 if you get, like, a 32 oz. latte with soy milk and chocolate syrup and whipped cream. I haven't been in a Starbucks in a while, but I'd be surprised if a 12 oz. black coffee is over two bucks.

Amazed that there's any debate about SY's history of anti-corporate rhetoric and leftist politics. It's been present, at least suggestively, in their lyrics for decades. Thurston still drifts that way in Bull's Tongue.

"at least they didn't name a motor oil after me" - Jerry Garcia on Cherry Garcia ice cream

Nabisco I defer to your well-reasoned, what shall we call it? process of understanding Starbucks. It's a very good point that funkiness and "a place you want to hang out in" is not the point of Starbucks at all. McDonald's designs and buys its furniture specifically so that people will grow uncomfortable on it after a set period of time. Starbuck's doesn't go this far but the idea is the same. I think it's a shame. Coffee is great. It deserves to be given its own little moment, not absently sipped at from some great cardboard vat while answering email and scrabbling for a mobile phone in your Jansport backpack.

Amazed that there's any debate about SY's history of anti-corporate rhetoric and leftist politics. It's been present, at least suggestively, in their lyrics for decades. Thurston still drifts that way in Bull's Tongue.

-- Bob Standard, Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:01 PM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

I'm aware of their anti-corporate rhetoric, I just tend to ignore it or not place too much stock in it since they've been employees of one of the biggest major labels for 20 years.

a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion
a Guardian style "lol open your eyes, sheeple" kind of opinion

there's still not a coffee shop in the town i grew up in, it's only around 4,000 people.

there is a starbucks in the next town, it's about 12,000 people, about 20 minutes away, i know people were excited when it opened.

and sonic youth were the ones that made it "okay" to SIGN to a major for the most part, i think that was part of cobain's thinking if i recall.

Tracer, now I'm going to have to find this memo that leaked from Starbucks, where someone very much at the top lamented that Starbucks sucked and proceeded to list every business decisions that had made the stores awful. (They used to be more comfy -- there was a transition moment from "pretending to be real coffeeshop" to basically being airport walkthrough places)

"The parts where Starbucks succeeded like mad, competition-wise, were (a) realizing they could create a market of people who wanted to grab coffee drinks on the go that would absolutely DWARF the market of people who wanted to spend time in pleasant coffeeshops, and (b) realizing that the world was becoming increasingly like an airport, in cities and small towns alike, and happily meshing into a food-court society would conquer attempts to offer people a break from it"

- nabisco

Exactly. That's what I meant when I said Starbucks makes me depressed cuz it feels like a mall. But said much better.

and sonic youth were the ones that made it "okay" to SIGN to a major for the most part, i think that was part of cobain's thinking if i recall.

Seminar N-233: Sonic Youth and the Gentrification of American Indie Rock (4 hrs, with coffee break, Q&A)

http://www.slate.com/id/2161504/entry/0/

Over the past ten years, in order to achieve the growth, development, and scale necessary to go from less than 1,000 stores to 13,000 stores and beyond, we have had to make a series of decisions that, in retrospect, have lead to the watering down of the Starbucks experience, and what some might call the commiditization of our brand.

and sonic youth were the ones that made it "okay" to SIGN to a major for the most part, i think that was part of cobain's thinking if i recall.

True, to an extent. Husker Du were the "first" to sign to a major, and supposedly Bob Mould gave SY lots of advice on how to navigate those waters. HD made it ok for SY to sign, SY made it ok (and profitable enough for DGC) for Nirvana to sign, and apres Nirvana, le deluge.

it may have led to the commoditization of the brand, but I bet it did a number on whipped-cream futures