Jesus Fucking Christ: evangelical bigwig opposed gay marriage "because it takes the dirt and danger out of clandestine sex with rent-a-men"

yeah, that's the bit that other folks have talked about, and i might have even mentioned. That the hilariosly negative view these folks have about gay people, w/ all the pathological stereotypes & whatnot, is that the only gay people they ever come in contact with are those w/in their own midst who have had to repress so much for so long. Eventually they crack, and thus are evidence in some people's minds that gayes = teh evil.

Agreed.

i think the fact that bush had regular talks with a rabid YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST is a lot more disturbing than any of this shit

Agreed!

Yeah, Grady, but like you say, that's an issue of deniability and ass-covering -- protecting yourself against accusation and slander -- rather than an issue of avoiding temptation.

You're half right. The other half is the fact that there are people who are drawn to those in a leadership position, be it a priest, minister, CEO, president, whatevs. People who actually wish to engage in some kind of behavior innapropriate of someone in that kind of role, NOT just make false accuations that are impossible to disprove. And when you're in that position, it can catch you off guard and you can fuck up. Again, we agree on Driscoll going way too far in this direction and placing blame on spouses who "let themselves go." My initial point was just that being aware of the potential for both slander AND tempation (not the kind of OMG I HOPE THAT HOT LADY IN THE 2nd PEW STOPS IN TODAY temptation, more the kind that can catch someone off-guard) is very real. I was just getting a little bothered that the sentiment was "hahaha xians r afraid sexx lolz."

If Haggard's unblinking congregation could sit and listen to such a liturgical Liberace week after week and not realize they were in the presence of someone who makes Barry Manilow in a full-length mink look butch, they really need to recalibrate their ability to detect prescription-strength doses of flamboyance.

OTM x100,000,000,000. In Jesus Camp he speaks of a life in Christ being FABULOUS. I swear I'm not making that up.

it just cements the link in people's mind between homosexuality and secret sordid activity

This is why i was unrealistically hoping Haggard could be a key person/symbol in changing the shape of homosexuality and religion in this country. Sadly, it will only reinforce cuurent views.

Well, the really unfortunate thing is that this country is full of well-adjusted gay couples who are Christians, and yet the evangelicals' rhetoric ensures that they'll never come into contact with them. (This would seem to be by design, actually: I assume the fear is that sharing anything with gay people -- trying to acknowledge common values at all -- will lead to GOD FORBID noticing that they tend to be decent human beings like anyone else.) The only way you can get that kind of example you're talking about would be ... well, the fairly unrealistic scenario of an unmarried clergyman being discovered as having a secret committed gay partner and raising adopted children in blissful good-citizen happiness?

ding ding ding.

Perhaps.

My fantasy scenerio was more along the lines of Haggard getting a divorce, dropping out of the spotlight for a number of years and then re-emerging as a homosexusal religious leader 100x more powerful than Vermont bishop guy. He cerntainly has a knack for leadership, and one would like to think that if he can build a congregation of 14,000 and have conference calls with the president while preaching homophobia that he can do the same as an openly gay man. One would like to think that the 14,000 member congregation, the 30mil association, all the political connections had less to do with his anti-gay anti-abortion stance than who he is as a communicator. The medium is the message, bro.

I know I'm sounding like I think Haggard is the best thing evah minus the pro-family rhetoric.

It's all just wishful thinking.

or at the very LEAST, get to know them, spend time with them, and perhaps gain some understanding as to where they're coming from.

True.

But Old Testament the story of Soddom and Gommorah is terribly misinterprited as a story about God hating teh ghey when its really a story about God punishing bloodthirsty rapists (hetero or homo).

but I agree in general abt the narrow interpretation of the story as being specifically homosexuality. Tho I believe there are several other OT passages commonly cited as "proof" that god hates fags. I forget where, Leviticus...? so many OT "laws"...

Leviticus 18:22 "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them."

Now Jesus, for his part, did explicitly deny the necessity to follow all the rules laid down in the OT, so you can ostensibly combine that rejection of Jewish moral traditions with his "hey I love everybody" attitude and extrapolate from there that he woulda been cool with Rip Taylor or whoever, but I think we should all be able to agree that that's stretching it quite a bit.

It should also be noted that there is a considerably large movment within Evangelical churches to admit that the ways in which the church has dealt with honosexuals hasn't been Christ-Like©. This movment seeks some kind of reparations with the Gay community and encourages openly homosexual families into thier churches in order to treat them as Jesus would have and perhaps gain understanding from them... but still defines homosexuality as a sin only redeemable through a life in Christ.

It's a nice sentiment, but if you're only going half way, just fucking forget about it.

Shakey OTM re: Chick tract on Soddom and Gommorah.

Re: other OT passages, yes there's at least one in Leviticus. There's a hilarious "Open Letter to Dr. Laura" floating around the net where someone goes "gee, thanks for setting me straight on Leviticus' commandments regarding homosexuality. Can you set me straight on a few more?" ...and goes on to ask her stance on shearing sheep, disposal of moldy clothing, stoning of adulterers, and other things Leviticus goes into inane depth on. quite teh funny.

v. gene, where's yo' POWAH?!?!??

threads like these almost make me glad i done grown up episcopalian.

They make me completely glad I did!

Guess which column "lying with a man as a woman does" falls in to????

(not to be read as snarky at all)

what does that have to do with what we're talking about? Is it that you relate more to a group discussion that listening to a speech?

pretty much, yeah. especially by choosing the authoritative leanings of my high school sunday school teacher(an engineer for GM/Delphi) than the increasingly authoritarian/conservative leanings of our pastor.

but i mention this things just as background for me.

the website isn't there any more and i didn't take proper notes abt who the rabbi was, or what his school was

Well the Old Testament is totally packed with prostitutes, so I can't claim to be clear on when exactly that became on par with an "abomination." I mean, through those first dozen books or whatever, the Bible has more to say about the filthiness of menstruation than on anything having to do with whether prostitution is right or wrong.

oh yeah, Onan. Another example of God obviously stacking His book up with events that you can totally misinterpret whichever way you want if you wish to force whatever doctrine on your kids. And let us thank the Victorians to re-enforcing that.