Rock On.
― de, Friday, 16 April 2004 01:32 (twenty years ago) link
― Evanston Wade (EWW), Friday, 16 April 2004 01:38 (twenty years ago) link
Btw 'small island'?? Do you realise Britain is the 6th largest island on the globe? Out of tens of thousands? You really are witless aint ya?
― de, Friday, 16 April 2004 01:47 (twenty years ago) link
― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Friday, 16 April 2004 02:28 (twenty years ago) link
Why have some people on ILM become so hostile lately?
― kjoerup, Friday, 16 April 2004 02:58 (twenty years ago) link
They weren't overt, Wyatt was not a confirmed Marxist until after the first part of his solo career was over, as you point out. He was kind of dipping his toe in the waters with Matching Mole and was more modishly lefty, "Little Red Record" was more of a cute joke than a serious political statement.
The only explicitly Marxist - or, more specifically, Maoist - rumblings I can recall from the time (not that I was there) would be from AMM - and even that was more Cornelius Cardew than the rest of the group.
Not strictly true as Keith Rowe was involved in the same political group as Cardew and gave up playing "elitist" music in AMM to play dreadful "workers'" music alonside Cardew. Silly boy!
― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 16 April 2004 08:43 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Friday, 16 April 2004 15:38 (twenty years ago) link
Now who is Edward Macan?
― Victor Meldrum, Friday, 16 April 2004 15:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 15:54 (twenty years ago) link
http://gnosis2000.net/
― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:05 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.progressiveears.com
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:15 (twenty years ago) link
http://gnosis2000.net/reviews/magma.htm
and those Jestersaurus web-zines that they did for a while (and which are on the site) are great. really informative stuff. and some of the reviews are great! really funny stuff.
― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:23 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Eve Atley (Kilbey1), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:46 (twenty years ago) link
Good site for multiple stances on the same albums - just wish they updated more often. (oh and I have reviews there too)
Gnosis is a great resource - especially check Eric Lumbleau and Craig Shropshire if you're into prog on the avant end.
― dleone (dleone), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago) link
btw, just clicking through on some of these sites led me to this non-sequitous discovery and I can't think of any other thread to post it to, so:
Maestro exists because the Gravitars say it must.
"Technology has now advanced far enough for Maestro to exist," Mike Oldfield.
http://www.mikeoldfield.com/flash/maestro.html
check out the screenshots, I am losing my mind
― (Jon L), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:07 (twenty years ago) link
or blaming a random a random Brit for belonging to a small island whose inflatedsense of importance is about 100 years out-of-date?
Inconsistency is such a useful thing.
― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:11 (twenty years ago) link
Why do people still respond to Squirrel Police? -- Tep (te...), April 9th, 2004.
More fool me. But you are the worst arsehole on this forum.
PS The adjective qualifies the noun you emptyheaded piece of shit!
― de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:17 (twenty years ago) link
― de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago) link
― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:26 (twenty years ago) link
x-post noodle okay that's it sorry. I am enjoying reading this thread, which is how I got myself onto it in the first place.
― de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:37 (twenty years ago) link
Web fans boost Marillion single
Rock band Marillion look poised to enter the UK top five with their new single after a sustained campaign among fans on their website. Retailer HMV's online arm has received a record 4,400 pre-orders for the song You're Gone, which is out on Monday.
It could become their biggest hit since Kayleigh, a number two success in 1985, according to HMV.
Marillion singer Steve Hogarth urged fans to buy at least three copies of the single to get it into the top 10.
You could dig deep, get into eight quid's worth of debt and buy three copies or more of our single
Steve Hogarth On the band's website, Hogarth said: "By our calculations, in the current UK single market, if you go out and buy one single each, we'll go top 40. If you go out and buy two versions, we'll go top 20.
"If, however, you'd like to make an old dog very happy, you could dig deep, get into eight quid's worth of debt and buy three copies or more of our single.
"We'd almost certainly go top 10 and I'd have my first ever top 10 single just before my 45th birthday!"
The song is available on two CD singles and a DVD single with a combined retail cost of almost £8.
'Loyal support'
Marillion spokeswoman Lucy Jordache said: "Whatever chart position You're Gone achieves will largely due to the fans' loyal support of the band.
"We hope that this will enable other people to hear the music and get into the band."
The band's fans are renowned for their loyalty. In 1997 they raised $60,000 (£32,000) to help finance a North American tour.
Marillion were among the first to embrace the internet as a means of marketing and selling their records, and communicating with fans.
HMV spokesman Gennaro Castaldo said the campaign had led to the most orders on its retail website since its launch in 1997, beating the previous best of 4,000 for the Stereophonics' Moviestar in February.
― Raindancer, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:40 (twenty years ago) link
Anyway, I lost interest when Fish left.
― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:43 (twenty years ago) link
Wonder if Status Quo will try the same tactic.
― Raindancer, Saturday, 17 April 2004 00:19 (twenty years ago) link
― kjoerup, Saturday, 17 April 2004 00:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:42 (twenty years ago) link
>Inconsistency is such a useful thing.
Actually, I haven't blamed de or accused him of anything. I did call him Mr. Douche Bag, but that's an honorific around these here parts. I simply pointed out that Britain is an amusing little shithole, although no doubt there aremany sterling examples of humanity floating around on the surface.
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:52 (twenty years ago) link
Now TEP's an areshole. The grammar police takes no prisoners,I see.
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:53 (twenty years ago) link
I give up.
Yet another potentially interesting ILM thread flushed down the toilet by you know who. (sigh)
― kjoerup, Saturday, 17 April 2004 06:55 (twenty years ago) link
― de, Saturday, 17 April 2004 12:05 (twenty years ago) link
― Raindancer, Saturday, 17 April 2004 18:38 (twenty years ago) link
...And there is no good book on Krautrock. ;)
― Joe (Joe), Saturday, 17 April 2004 21:38 (twenty years ago) link
Thanks!
― Eve Atley (Kilbey1), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:41 (twenty years ago) link
Whats the story behind Toyal Wilcox's right wing leanings?
― Raindancer, Monday, 26 April 2004 13:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― Raindancer, Monday, 26 April 2004 13:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 14:16 (nineteen years ago) link
P and indeed shaw! what does this mean?
― NRQ (Enrique), Monday, 26 April 2004 14:59 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― ENRQ (Enrique), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:08 (nineteen years ago) link
is anyone else here aware of the musical tastes of a cohort of John Tyndall (notorious British neo-Nazi leader) named Andrew Bower?
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 01:41 (nineteen years ago) link
― Raindancer, Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:35 (nineteen years ago) link
Actually, aren't we all full of contradictions, meaning that a) anti-asylum seeker racists will whole-heartedly cheer the liberation of France and b) listen to 'black people's music' while they do it and c) my local 'sexiest dance and r'n'b station uses Kula Shaker's 'Hey Dude' as backing for one of its things AND played Tattva during its golden hour segment recently.
― Enrique (Enrique), Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:55 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 15:19 (nineteen years ago) link
Mike Barnes - A New Day Yesterday: UK Progressive Rock & The 1970s (March 5, 2020)Music journalist Mike Barnes (MOJO, The Wire, Prog, and author of the acclaimed biography Captain Beefheart) goes back to the birth of progressive rock and surveys the cultural conditions and attitudes that fed into, and were in turn affected by, this remarkable musical phenomenon. He examines the myths and misconceptions that have grown up around progressive rock and paints a vivid, colourful picture of the Seventies based on hundreds of hours of his own interviews with musicians, music business insiders, journalists and DJs, and from the personal testimonies of those who were fans of the music in that extraordinary decade.
https://images.roughtrade.com/product/images/files/000/186/307/hero/Omnibus_Omnibus.jpg?1577747154
― Fastnbulbous, Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:30 (four years ago) link
so i'd push back a bit against rush's "obviously he was a patronising idiot! nothing to see here!"
― mark s
hell, mark, i'd push back against that statement. "insincere" is one of the last words i would ever think of to describe cardew - he was very obviously sincere, excruciatingly so. the other side of my rejection of "authenticity" criticism is that I think music can be honest and sincere while at the same time being condescending, didactic, and trite. to put it in a fairly offensive and tasteless way, just because clapton's kid died doesn't mean i have to consider "tears in heaven" great art.
(for the record i'm not personally much taken with cardew's work with AMM or with the Scratch Orchestra! i recognize it's conceptually interesting but i don't find it particularly listenable - and that's not a blanket dismissal of EAI)
― you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:38 (four years ago) link
so if we're not going to talk about magma, how about univers zero, who i've seen described as doggedly apolitical. of course even that description is challenging - offshoot band present released that hamfisted "new atheist" track "delusions" in 1998, and honestly, less so in the '70s than now certainly but being inspired by lovecraft is an inherently political act, just like being inspired by wagner (or coltrane!) is.
― you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:40 (four years ago) link
lol i just found this in the youtube comments to HYMNEN
Paul Buckmaster (2 years ago (edited))Maxwell Clark: It is Cardew who is the imperialist; he understands nothing of Stockhausen, whom I knew personally, and whose music I introduced to Miles Davis, May 1972, while collaborating with Davis on the "On The Corner" Sessions (including "Ife"). I had brought LPs of Gruppen, Mixtur, Hymnen., as well as Wuorinen's "Time's Encomium". Davis had them playing all day, over a week, on his autochanger. He couldn't get enough, and recognized KHS as the towering genius he truly is. Cardew, as typical of any dyed-in-the-wool British imperialist — cleverly, but not quite-so-cleverly — twists the discourse into falsehood and mere puerile calumny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Buckmaster
(arranged the strings for space oddity among many other things, he actually died in 2017, maybe posting this comment finished him off) (probably this belongs on another thread but this is where we were just talking abt cardew so)
― mark s, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:23 (four years ago) link
Dayum.
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:25 (four years ago) link
this version of hymnen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDxpa-XPMTo
― mark s, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:26 (four years ago) link
Ridiculous though it may be to portray Cardew as an accomplice to British imperialism, it is indeed remarkable to note that Stockhausen briefly mattered to one of the greatest African American musicians of all time (alternatively: to one of the greatest musicians of all time who happened to be African American).
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:29 (four years ago) link
honestly that's something i've never been able to understand, how it was _stockhausen_ of all the composers who blew the minds of the rock and jazz worlds collectively back in the late '60s, early '70s. i'd hire his press agent in a minute.
― you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:44 (four years ago) link
You mean, over and above Ligeti or Boulez or Carter or…?
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:46 (four years ago) link
MD's stockhausen fandom isn't new info particularly -- ian carr talks abt it pp258-59 if the 1984 paladin edn of his miles davis -- and actually i see that buckmaster is also mentioned on those same pages, inc.the possibility that PB introduced MD to those very records (he certainly caused them to be around at that point, and discussed knowledgeably, tho it's apparently likely MD was already aware of what KS sounded like)
buckmaster is accurately afaik described as a pupil of UK 12-toner humphrey searle but the all-important major tom/elton john connection is sadly not made :)
(i am listening to hymnen precisely bcz i'm currently looking into aspects of rushomancy's question: ignoring any specific musical conundra he was choosing to confront, i suspect two parts of the answer are KS's own personal charm and charisma (considerable, he was in many ways his own press agent) but also the wide availability of his work on deutsche grammaphon from c.1961
― mark s, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:51 (four years ago) link
The hippie/proto-New Age stylings of his mid to late 60s 'intuitive' music in particular no doubt helped broker him a wider audience (cf. Aus den sieben Tagen and Stimmung).
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:55 (four years ago) link
*helped him broker
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul)
or cage! it seems like nobody would talk about cage without dismissing him as a cheap punchline. fucking ridiculous!
― you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:57 (four years ago) link
It is Cardew who is the imperialist; he understands nothing of Stockhausen, whom I knew personally,
I suspect Cornelius Cardew knew Stockhausen a lot better, personally, than Paul Buckmaster.
― High profile Tom D (Tom D.), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:59 (four years ago) link
lol I deliberately didn't mention Cage because I find his music profoundly uninteresting as a listening experience, barring an exception or two. But the intervening years certainly haven't agreed with me, so perhaps it's some form of justice.
xp
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 14:59 (four years ago) link
Aside from the reasons given so far, Stockhausen also worked far more with electronics than any of those, except possibly Cage, so it makes sense that musicians who were exploring electric instrumentation might have looked to him. There's also just the powerful visceral impact of some of his music.xps
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:03 (four years ago) link
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Musique concrète's protagonists don't appear to have been as 'marketable' fwiw.
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:06 (four years ago) link
Wrt Cage, I can see why jazzers might not have been taken by a guy who scorned improvisation and rockers might not have identified with ideas of non-expression/non-intention. That said, Zappa and Patrick Moraz appeared on the 1993 Chance Operation tribute and a number of rockers have worked with the prepared piano.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:07 (four years ago) link
Stockhausen was a pioneer wrt live electronics, which seems significant.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:09 (four years ago) link
lol I deliberately didn't mention Cage because I find his music profoundly uninteresting as a listening experience, barring an exception or two.― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul)
this is how i feel about stockhausen!
― you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:10 (four years ago) link
That's totally fair. The thing too is that both composers' outputs are so massive that there is likely much that could tip the balance either way were I to hear it.
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:14 (four years ago) link
Love both, although it took me a little while with Stockhausen.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:15 (four years ago) link
To go back to this thread's original premise, part of me feels like Stockhausen is a prime candidate for proggiest major postwar composer, if only because of his penchant for high-minded yet unintentionally silly conceptual grand narratives. Berio, too, but for completely different reasons (mostly having to do with proto-polystylism).
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:18 (four years ago) link
also his penchant for quilting together traditions, which is key to what makes prog "progressive" imo: not just the world-music tape-tapestries (telemusik and hymnen are distortion-heavy cousins to all you need is love) but also his constant drive towards at combining competing elements in the avant-garde (composed serialism, musique concrete, electronic composition, live electronic manipulation of all the above, plus some cheekily unacknowledged thefts from the early minimalists, and -- post his starvation-tantrum to persuade his wife to return to him in 1968 -- free improvisation)
― mark s, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:30 (four years ago) link
Played not bad jazz piano, in his spare time, so I believe.
― High profile Tom D (Tom D.), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:35 (four years ago) link
Wouldn't be surprised given his son Markus's musical path.
― toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:37 (four years ago) link
also indeterminacy of course
― mark s, Tuesday, 11 February 2020 15:45 (four years ago) link