Top five ...

The concept of glitch is so brilliant it makes my head spin.

"'Member when computers in music were the next big thing? Well, now their big. And they're Fucking Up."

1) Late 60s/Early 70s Bubblegum Factories: Kasenatz/Katz & Joey Levine/Neil Bogart--Buddah Records (1910 Fruitgum Co., Ohio Express, Lemon Pipers, etc.); Jeff Barry/Ron Dante/Andy Kim/Don Kirshner (Archies, Cufflinks) ; the many UK bands of Tony Burrows w/ songwriting by Tony Macaulay or Greenaway & Cook ( White Plains, Edison Lighthouse, Pipkins).

I just found out Albert Hammond, father of the Strokes guitarist, wrote the Pipkins "Gimme Dat Ding". Wow

2) Post Beach Boys/Mamas & Papas Vocal Pop, late 60s: Spanky & Our Gang, Fifth Dimension, Jim & Jeanne, Free Design, We Five, Millenium, Sagittarius, Cowsills, Sunshine Company, Harper's Bizarre, loads of no hit wonders.

1. Detroit Techno: Juan Atkins, Kevin Saunderson, Derrick May, Number of Names, Cybotron, Eddie Flashin Fowlkes, Underground Resistance, Rich Hawtin, Kenny Larkin, Dan Bell, Rob Hood, Jeff Mills, Carl Craig, Detroit Escalator Company, John Beltran, Theorem, Deep Chord... 1981-present. (this could be split multiple times according to years.) CO

Also see Detroit Raves/Electronic Music Circa 1994-97. Before Drugs and fashion became the most important thing at a party. When a Detroit party was something people traveled 10 hours by car to go to because Detroit had the best scene in the midwest. It was all about the music, and people were there to jack. See Packard Plant, Zoots Coffeehouse, GI Forum, St. Andrews, The Green Room, The Zone, a million warehouses, and Motor's early days. That was back when there seemed like there was momentum in this city.

2. Berlin Minimal Dub/Basic Channel: Maurizio, Pole, Arovane, Burial Mix, Vainquer, Fluxion, Porter Ricks...1992-1999 P.S. fuck "heroin house" that is a term used by people who got to the party 5 years too late. Don't be mislead by Simon Reynolds'isms. CO

3. Tamala/Motown 1961-1972(1972, The year they left Detroit, and they started to lose their soul) CO

4. shoegazer/post-punk(yeah, me too...) CO

5. Michigan Space Rock: Monaural, Tomorrowland, Fuxa, Windy and Carl, 12 Second Dynasty, Auburn Lull, Mahogany... Southeastern Michigan 1992-1995. This scene was a big "S" Looking back the records were not all that great, but it represented a time of youth and innocence to me in my late teens. That whole scene was a lot of naive fun, before the business and scenesterism corrupted the pure beauty of music for me. SSS

6. Cologne Germany, 1997-2000. When the whole Kompakt/Profan/Kreisel/Klang minimal techno/house scene was at its creative peak. COS

fuck "heroin house" that is a term used by people who got to the party 5 years too late. Don't be mislead by Simon Reynolds'isms.

Erm, I 'got' the phrase 'Heroin House' from an old Forced Exposure mailing list and thought it was a) funny and b) quite accurate. But obviously Michael I will in future seek yr validation before dropping any more 'genres'. Howabout the phrase "Elitist Scenester Snob" - is that OK with you?

1. Krautrock [O, bit of C but that's mainly just because they're German, ah yes]: you know, those guys.
2. 80s Indie Fucking Schmindie [O, S]: Felt, Pastels, TVPs etc etc...
3. IDM/Glitch [O, C]: MoM, Pan Sonic, Kid606, Stock Hausen & Walkman...
4. Post-Punk/No Wave [O]: more on the Devo-esque side, though...
5. 1950s Film Electronica [O, C]: Louis & Bebe Barron, the elusive 'Synthetic Flesh'...

I guess I should make New York minimalism an O as well, especially if I drop the 60s part, since I do like the majority of it and the lamer stuff never gets as highly acclaimed (or as lame) as Electric Ladyland.

I'm still trying to pick out the 5th: 50s/60s textural music? 60s electroacoustic?

Devo is not no wave! Jeez! What would new wave be then?

Yeah, but I don't mean to say 'that which is Devo', I was referring more to the stuff which is kind of like Devo... I was considering saying Synth Punk, but then that didn't fit because I wanted more of the skinny angular groups that fit into the Post-Punk/No Wave canons...

Does that make sense? Probably not, but y'know

This is one of those good threads I can't really find a hook to contribute to. Hmm. Maybe everything post-shoegaze because it soothes my soul, but beyond that I want the world and I want it now.

Andrew L.

Just out of curiosity, how many of the "Heroin House" producers are actually involved in heroin? The answer is just none of the Hardwax crew are involved in junk.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0127/sotc.php

yet another example of why UK dance journalists and press have played the biggest role in wrecking dance music by dragging drugs into everything. I think using drug references to label dance music is just bad form, if for no other reason that it marginalizes the music.

I am a dance music snob, I see nothing wrong with that. If I hurt your feelings I must have said something that was on the money. Are you one of those people who got their BC/CR/BM/M tracks in the metal tins? ;)

Michael - I know nothing abt the personal habits of German dance music producers. For all I know they might be kind to small puppies and old ladies, and more straight-edge than Fugazi. I wld say that 'Heroin House' v. accurately describes the muffled, womb-like, narcotic wooziness of the best Chain Reaction records - the rest is speculation... But if you think that drugs has nothing to do with dance music - or any kind of music, ever since Louis Armstrong smoked his first spliff - then you are living in fairyland. I feel a bit sorry for you if you've never experienced the sheer bliss of good drugs combined with dance music DELIBERATELY DESIGNED to stimulate/simulate the rush, the peak. It's a bit like only listening to one of yr speakers.

And no, my feelings could never be 'hurt' by someone who gives a flying fuck abt what format you bought a record in. Elitism and snobbery have done far more to 'marginalise' dance music than any amount of drug references; and besides, in the UK dance music IS the mainstream. It's only the anal collectors, clinging to their white labels and exclusive remixes, that still desperately want to keep it to themselves.

'Sheer bliss of good drugs..." Eh?
Now BAD drugs, I can understand.

andrew and michael,

isn't this indicative of a UK/US split, in which *as far as house/techno goes* drugs play a central role in britain, while in america, until recently at least, drugs haven't played so much of a role. at least as far as chicago/detroit goes, would doubt the same goes for new york.

as for the description, heroin house, i took it to be descriptive of the music rather than the habits of anyone in particular.

my maurizio is in a tin.

i will answer the 5ive genres question later.

off to buy claude young, momus, moodyman and josie and the pussycats now.

Man, I fucking wish I had the money to buy all the Chain Reaction, Basic Channel, Burial Mix, M, Kompakt, etc etc etc on vinyl. Well, actually, I probably do -- but if I chose to buy all of that in its 'originally intended' format, I'd have a hell of a lot less jazz, soul, post-punk, whatever whatever whatever. And maybe I wouldn't have a car.

MI space rock-wise, you certainly couldn't affix an 'S' to the first Monaural 12".

back in the day, you did not have a choice. you had to buy the vinyl because Hardwax had not yet begun to issue their music on CD. The tins did not happen until Chain Reaction was up and running and a couple Burial Mix records had been released. When was that. late 96, early 97?

I have indulged in my fair share of controlled substances while dancing(although it was in my younger days.) From my perspective(and this is undoubtedly a Detroit predjudice,) people who associate drugs with music are generally considered ignorant and are to be looked down upon. It is an attitude that started in the 80's when Detroit had a serious crack problem, and the real cost of drug use in the inner-city reared it's head. Among many of the older Detroit producers and music community drugs are looked down upon, and that attitude still lingers to this day. The Music Institute did not even serve liquor.

as for Monaural, no doubt, but so many of those records have dated really badly. I still break out the Windy and Carl records occasionally.

The people who got into them in 1997 are better than the people who got into them in 1992, though, cause they have 5 years extra musical perspective to bring to the records. This isn't a techno thing - someone buying Sgt Pepper now is better off than someone who bought it in 1967.

well, mike, thats what i mean really. that drugs/music situation just doesn't exist here in the UK, so anyone making that link here wouldn't be thought of that way. drugs are socially accepted in UK club culture, and, really, at a wider level too. this, perhaps, is why i have no problem with the Simon Reynolds type position, it is very similar to my own

grimble grumble? do they fit the michigan space rock thing?

Sorry Tom I don't get that at all. I would have loved to have the opportunity to have heard Sgt Pepper the week it came out. I'd be able to approach it with fresh ears in the context it was released rather than having it filtered through 30 years worth of hagiography or villification. First time I listened to it I was rather disappointed as it wasn't as sonically extreme as I had imagined it would be. Of course in the time between first relase and me listening to it loads of people had picked up the baton and ran with it in innumerable ways.

Listeners are as affected by 'hagiography and vilification' as they choose to be.

Okay, Mike -- damn! You got me. :)

I'll admit it; my intro to Porter Ricks and Maurizio were those Macro Dub compilations from '96/'97, which most purists probably view as the equivalent of '70s K-Tel corporate rock comps. Eardrum = Robin Trower, right?

You were late to the party on those Robert Johnson 78s, and I'm assuming most of us here were. Does that mean our interest in him is somehow less valid?

No. Your reaction is no less valid than someone who was listening to it the day it was released. I'd bet that it would be different though, whether or not that is in a positive or negative way depends upon the listeners experiences. I'm sure if I was listening to Robert Johnson in 1938 I would find it alien, disconcerting and shockingly other. It still sounds that way but I can't listen to it without being aware of it's context in 20c pop music.
You might be able to ignore the 30 years plus commentary on Sgt Pepper but you can't ignore the 30 years plus music which followed after it which will impact on your perception of it. Plus with Sgt Pepper it's not just the music, it's everything else which is happening culturally and socially which would add to the experience. I don't think I'd be so interested in listening to say DDBM&T when it came out. I'm sure soemthing like Oxide and Neutrino will sound different in 5 years time as 2 step is replaced by other genres.
Anyway in the grand scheme of things 5 years is nowt - though I suppose in dance music that's several lifetimes.

context changes everything, and i don't see how it is possible to avoid context.

By building your own, better context?

and this shuts out the outside world how exactly?

Keeps it in perspective.

I find "Heroin House" to be a lot less misleading than "Minimal Dub", which a) as stylistic description always struck me as clutching at straws slightly, and b) is only really accurate about half the time. That said, no term is going to easily fit such a consciously inarticulate/inarticulable style of music.

1. Bubblegum - Late 60's to early 70's: all the Kasenetz-Katz stuff, Archies, Boyce & Hart, Andy Kim , etc.(C,O,S) 2. Glam Bubblegum (basically the chinnichap stuff): The Sweet, Suzi Quatro, Mud, Bay City Rollers kind of... (S) 3. Mod Revival - 1978-1980 or so: The Jam (obviosuly), Chords, Lambrettas, Secret Affair, etc. (O) 4. 60's softpop: Claudine Longet, The Sandpipers, The Association, I guess the Free Design fit in here, etc. (C,O) 5. The current spate of retro new-wave/casio indiepop: Shelflife Records, Matinee Records, March Records, Darla, Drive-In, BBPTC, etc. I can't remember all the band names, but it doesn't matter too much...(O,S) 6. El Records of course (C)

sorry for not using HTML tags...

Ha! I bought my first BC/CR/etc. tin last year when I was out looking for wagons to hop onto! Since then I've even accumulated a few more. The *thought* of someone buying a Maurizio tin in 200fucking2 is incredible, huh? Well, as the Detroiters say, I've gotta know my history...

seeing this thread in new answers made me think of a few more. everyone else pleez add too, as i find this thread fascinating (except the c.r. debate):

ohio-proto-punk, 1968-78: inspired by mark s' posting the "those were diff'rent times" essay-link to nylpm. starting with the velvets residency in 68, running through the tombs, electric eels "cyclotron/agitated" 7", etc., and probably climaxing with early ubu (around, say, dub housing.) (O, but also especially C.)
early 90s political hardcore/proto-emo, 1988-1994: the hated, anything tonie joy was involved in (moss icon, universal order of armageddon), gravity records (clikitat ikatowi, antioch arrow), born against, rorschach, man is the bastard, los crudos (and satellite units like huggy bear, unwound, nation of ulysses.) (S, but especially C. i can't bear to listen to many of these records now.)

revive! i still really like this thread.

1. lost generation/post-rock (UK division) - C,O
2. UK garage 1997-2001 - C,O
3. hardcore/jungle/d&b 1990-1997 - C,O
4. post-punk blah blah - c,o
5. metal - o,s

I like this thread, too. Here are my highly opinionated five.

1. Early Britpop, before Coldplay broke out; in other words, back when it was still under the heavy influence of David Bowie instead of Radiohead. Not like there's anything wrong with Radiohead, but there is something wrong with Chris Martin, the wanker.

Pulp, Suede, Manic Street Preachers. (C,O)

2. Trip-hop, before people started calling it "downtempo", and it became too attached to lite-house frippery, and lost all sense of texture beyond fluffy lounge compilation fodder.

Massive Attack, Portishead, Tricky. (C,0)

3. Shoegaze; I don't know quite enough about all of the bands in this genre to make categorical determinations, BUT what I've heard, I love.

Ride, Slowdive, My Bloody Valentine. (C,O)

4. Synth pop, the 80s leg, not the current and dubious revival, but the dark, depthful stuff that I got teased in high school for listening to. In other words, I'm not altogether interested in whatever they're doing in Brooklyn right now.

New Order, Depeche Mode, Gary Numan. (C,O)

5. Bleak and cerebral post-punk of the late 70s/early 80s variety. White-boy music that makes you want to shake your ass and cower in an airtight fallout shelter. Simultaneously. While wearing a denim jacket with Che Guevara pins on it.

Cabaret Voltaire, Gang of Four, Shriekback. (C, 0)

Merseybeat/British Beat 63-66
Symphonic Rock (not prog in general - just symphonic rock) 70-77
New Romantics heyday 81-84
"Twee" English psychedelia 67-68
Britpop 93-97

All of my choices, btw, are O while I couldn't care less about the other criteria.

1) lox-style generic generic thug mcs and crews (1997-current) (c,o, s)
2) m and f vocals gloopy rnb/teen pop (1998-current) (c, o)
3) overproduced nu metal and especially 'rap' rock, synthy, preferably with beats (1997-current) (c,o)
4) sparkly build-y pop-house anthems (some crossover with number two if you count remixes!!) (1985-current) (o)
5) the beatnuts (1992-1999) (o, s)

haha the nuts wanted so bad to get into the first category but never broke through!!

6) mid 80s 'romo' synth pop (1979-1990) (o, s)
7) exxxtreme gabba (1996-2001) (c, o, s)
8) disco (1969-1983) (c, o)
9) mtv crossover big beat (1996-2000) (o)
10) emotionally manipulative idm (1991-2002) (s)

11) 2step/mc garage (2000-current) (c,o,s)
12) typical early 90s hiphop bullshit (1989-1994) (o,s)
13) cratedigger skewed 60s70s sunny jazz/funk/soul (1965-1980) (o,s)
14) e6 (1995-2000) (biggest and most conditional fuckin SO SUE ME ever)
15) pop-dancehall (1995-current)

that last one is (c,o) of course

1. Pop (80s onwards) (CO)
2. Punk 'n' No Wave ( mostly US - 70s)(CO)
3. Northern Soul (hah!)(S)
4.Indie po(o)p'n'rawk (80s-90s)(CO)
5.Trip Hop (90s)(CO)

haha right on nath ok mine is now just

1) pop (1300-current) (c,o,s)

I dunno, I should have just said: 1. Crap music (S)

I'm surprised I don't remember ever seeing this thread before.

Late 80's/early 90's (?) Kuwaiti pop with male vocalists singing in falseto. (S)

1. 40's and 50's Kansas City. C and O and Big Joe Turner and pretty much every Rock and Roller at the time.
2. '77 - '84 Athens Georgia. COS Any scene that could produce the first b52's record, Pylon, Oh OK and Chronic Town is Ok by me even if the concept is enh. But American influenced dance punk is a good concept.
3. Australia. O.
4.60's Stax. CO
5 Late 60's early 70's Band-Dylan-Upstate NY. CO They sound like the Catskills.