This is your rolling New York Knicks trainwreck thread

He should have one that says "apostrophe"

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2011/02/ipt/1298195706.jpg?&sig=RQZNOx_JmL9LigzVUBbyJw--

hi!!!

he can't even do the pat my head, rub my belly thing right.

head pat / mutombo finger wag

new, intense workout regimen isiah will install when he returns to coach 'melo and 'mare

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CqDk4jAv_Y4/TSGiWrFEpNI/AAAAAAAAFw4/8j7F_62xKhk/s1600/03.jpg

really rooting for the nets to pull this out

sounds like they're less a real factor now, and more a pressure-point to force the NYK to overpay for 'melo.

anyone heard whether billups will demand a buyout if he's traded? i've read that, but mostly in the context of him being shipped to the nets in a 'melo package.

if true i'm gonna assume that means melo cannot be convinced to go to new jersey. the knicks package is poor tbh.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/12/24/amd_knicks-isiah-shirt.jpg

haha. well, for all their incompetence, new york could stumble into a nice starting lineup if they sign dwight howard or chris paul when they become free agents (can't get them both).

i think it would be a waste for dwight howard to sign there. new york, under this regime, plays no defense. howard is a great defender, but he can only do so much in that system.

so are they actually thinner than miami?

Dantoni only plays 6 or 7 guys anyways, so bench doesn't matter.

yeah i guess you're right.

next thing knicks need is a real coach.

haha. well, for all their incompetence, new york could stumble into a nice starting lineup if they sign dwight howard or chris paul when they become free agents (can't get them both).

― Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:39 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

cant get either due to salary cap / no trade chips

nash n dirk 2 knicks

cant get either due to salary cap / no trade chips

dwight howard to LAL always seemed more likely to me. crushing blow to the magic -- again.

i mean i think it's fair to wait and see what the new salary structure is....wouldn't surprise me if there's some grandfathering of old contracts plus the ability to have three max players--it's pretty clear that clustering the elite talent works to the nba's advantage.

hollinger hates the trade for new york mostly cause of the opportunity cost, kinda an interesting way to look at it

New York: D+

You can't evaluate this as you would a normal trade. This deal was made at gunpoint, and that colors the entire assessment.

Anthony became the first player in memory to issue a trade demand and then list one team that he'd accept a trade to. And then somehow, the Knicks decided to start bidding against themselves and repeatedly agreed to up the ante in the final hours.

New York could have had Anthony this summer while losing only Chandler (a restricted free agent they would have had to renounce). Their primary risk to that outcome was a "franchise tag" in the new collective bargaining agreement that would have allowed Denver to keep Anthony. But even then plenty of alternatives were available for the Knicks, as three better players -- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Dwight Howard -- all seemed anxious to get to the Big Apple via power plays of their own, and one of the three (or another marquee star) may have wriggled free regardless of what new restrictions the next CBA imposes.

This isn't Indiana or Memphis, and this saga laid that reality bare. Even with a franchise tag rule, New York had so many advantages that it was only a matter of time before a second star showed up, especially given the salary cap space the Knicks had carved out.

To get a player like Anthony in those circumstances, it was worth paying something above just Chandler to convert a likely outcome to a certainty.

But in this case the premium New York paid was as follows, beyond Chandler:

• Gallinari
• Mozgov
• Their 2014 first-round draft pick
• Golden State's second-round picks in 2012 and 2013 (owned by the Knicks)
• $6 million in cash ($3 million each to Minnesota and Denver)
• Swallowing two dead-money years at the end of Balkman's contract
• Trading Anthony Randolph for Corey Brewer
• Trading Felton for Billups, making New York eight years older at the point guard spot with a player who makes nearly twice in salary next season. Remind again why they needed to commit to all eight of these additional considerations for a player they were likely to get anyway?

The worst part, of course, is that this deal proves that no matter how many advantages New York gains from its magnetic appeal to potential free agents, owner James Dolan will screw them up. Leaning on the genius of Isiah Thomas -- because it worked out so well for the first time -- he fell hook, line and sinker for every bluff thrown his way by the Nuggets and Melo's people. (Yes, Melo's people participated -- Anthony needed to make sure he got a lucrative contract extension under the current salary rules before being traded.)

New York still gets its Melo-Stoudemire nucleus, but now lacks the supporting pieces to do anything important with that core. And by extending Melo now, they agree to lock him up at such an expensive price that, in concert with Stoudemire's deal, it likely precludes making a run at Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Dwight Howard in 2012.

Denver: B+

With a loaded gun pointed at their heads, the Nuggets bluffed and schemed their way to a very palatable end-game by running circles around the New York area's battling ownership groups. Using New Jersey for leverage and hoping the Knicks were foolish enough to take the bait, Denver eventually squeezed terms that got the Nuggets under the luxury tax line -- a sizable fit considering they were $13 million over -- brought in a much younger point guard, two quality forwards, a young big man, a first-round pick, two second-round picks and cash.

That's not a bad haul, and it still may be improved upon. With Lawson ready to move up to the starting role, it appears Felton may be moved on to a third team. It's not out of the question that Denver could still make the playoffs, and if the Nuggets can hang on to center Nene Hilario -- another of the Nuggets' potential free agents -- Denver will come out of this in far better shape than most teams that lose a star player.

Minnesota: B+

I like Brewer, but I'd trade him for Randolph in a heartbeat. Brewer is a solid role player who plays great defense but can't shoot or dribble. That type of player has his uses, but that's all Brewer will ever be. Helpful, yes, but fungible too.

Randolph has a lower floor but a much higher ceiling. He can't shoot, he weighs 11 pounds and he's a head case. On the other hand, he has rare shot-blocking talent, handles the ball unusually well for a player of his size, and is an elite athlete. He's a potential game-changer at the defensive end and, if the light bulb ever comes on, he's going to provide a very potent complement to Kevin Love's skills in the Minnesota frontcourt.

The price of that trade was just swallowing Curry's expiring contract, but because of the difference in salary between Brewer and Randolph and the $3 million coming from New York, it's pretty much a wash financially. Basically it amounts to a free talent upgrade for Minnesota just for loaning out their cap space to get the Nuggets under the luxury tax.

yeah i saw that--heavily based upon taking it as a given that the knicks could've gotten melo over the summer. i mean, do we know how true that really is?

i mean i think it's fair to wait and see what the new salary structure is....wouldn't surprise me if there's some grandfathering of old contracts plus the ability to have three max players--it's pretty clear that clustering the elite talent works to the nba's advantage.

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:05 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

really id imagine one of the main things the league is trying to avoid is all the good players clustering in elite cities creating a tiered set up where most teams never have any chance - theres been a lot of talk form the owners of a franchise tag which is p much the antithesis of wanting more stacked teams - its good to remember that when youre talking abt 'the league' youre talking abt the owners - but even if there was some separate entity just looking out for the interests of the nba as a whole imo crating more miamis would srsly not be a good move - i mean boston la w/e is w/in traditional parameters - but this maimi situation is different - its worth noting that everyone hates them

yeah it's also worth noting how good the nba's tv ratings are this year.

i see your point but right now the talent level in the nba is so good that we can have the luxury of a few elite teams and also have tons of teams that are interesting and worth seeing/paying attention to for one reason or another. i tend to feel that all the conventional wisdom stuff about it being a stars league and being an extremely predictable league is otm. is it in anyone's interest to keep a superteam from being built in new york so instead we can have another denver and another phoenix--two teams that were "good" for years but were never going to win a championship?

anyway maybe i'm just projecting because the nba is borrrrring when the talent is distributed evenly

i dont think it has to be distributed evenly you just want to avoid situation where small market/boring cities feel like they have no chance to compete or keep their best players cause theyre inevitably going conspire w/their friends to go to l.a.

yeah i saw that--heavily based upon taking it as a given that the knicks could've gotten melo over the summer. i mean, do we know how true that really is?

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:09 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well its more that they couldve gotten melo but if they didnt then they prob could get someone even better next year - its speculative for sure - especially considering no one knows what the new cba will look like - but the fact that melo/deron/paul/howard all seem to have some level of interesting new york makes it maybe not such a bad bet - on the other hand melo was actually getable now which has a lot to say for itself - but BUT theyve hamstrung themselves going forward by giving up so much/signing two max players who arent uber eliete guys

i mean i think this is absolutely correct

fivethirtyeight Nate Silver
There are ~8-10 guys in the NBA who are worth way more than the max contract. MIA has two right now. If they signed Paul, NYK would have 1.
10 minutes ago

yeah i guess the real thing is any one of paul, deron, howard would be a better fit with amar'e. still wacky to call it a d+ deal!

yeah its kinda a D+ from the pov of contending for a title, a B+ as far as improvement, and a A+++++ from a marketing standpoint

still think the problem w the analysis upthread is that i actually believe melo woulda signed w/ denver to get the $$$. he wanted knicks, but he was gonna get that money no matter what.

yeah but that wouldve been the best possible outcome for the knicks if it lead to them getting one of howard/paul/deron

nerds agree http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/deal-for-anthony-may-limit-knicks-upside

i like hollinger's analysis. there's no point in even playing thru the regular-season, really. just calculate how many wins each team will have, based on their roster and offseason acquisitions, and then set-up playoff brackets.

oh, to account for regular-season injuries and wear-and-tear on older players, smash a steel plate against every player's kneecaps, calves and back before starting the playoffs.

CSheridanESPN Chris Sheridan/Amar'e Stoudemire said he spokely briefly with Carmelo Anthony after trade was agreed to.

sounds awkward.

i think hollinger makes a lot of sense, altho i think he's underrating melo as a player

honestly it seems to me like the nba is sort of starting to resemble baseball a bit, tho in an even more exaggerated fashion

like you have the top tier destination spots in the nba now where ppl seem to agree that all FAs want to go (miami, LA, ny, chicago, and i think you could add boston in here once kg/ray/pierce nucleus moves on) just like you have in baseball (yanks, sox, phils etc) except in the nba you have these teams wielding the nature of their locale as the trump card as opposed to the ability to just pay out the wazoo like the red sox or something

then you have everyone else basically, and those teams break down into teams that will spend big money on players and those that won't/can't. like, in the nba you have joe johnson signing a max deal, igoudala coming close, but none of those teams are gonna seriously compete for an nba title any time soon, and i think it's sort of the equivalent of like the mariners signing jayson werth, or the mariners doling out massive money for chone figgins, or the jays paying out their ass for vernon wells

& then you have the smart teams that are gonna lay back & rebuild organically cuz that's the only way you can. like, the thunder = the rays (durant = longoria even) as a team w/ a very smart front office that schooled everyone in draft/development & then even teams like the clippers or memphis (despite throwing mad money at rudy gay) who are developing potential contenders thru the draft, tho even against their will in the clippers case

anyway my point is that i think for a team like denver this is prob a blessing in disguise if their management is good enough, because they're a mid-tier team & signing carmelo to the max for the next three years wasn't gonna bring them any close.

i know it's not a perfect analogy but that's sorta how it feels to me

totally true. makes me wonder if -- in response -- the owners will demand a revenue-sharing type of system, like the nfl has.

well its more that they couldve gotten melo but if they didnt then they prob could get someone even better next year - its speculative for sure - especially considering no one knows what the new cba will look like - but the fact that melo/deron/paul/howard all seem to have some level of interesting new york makes it maybe not such a bad bet - on the other hand melo was actually getable now which has a lot to say for itself - but BUT theyve hamstrung themselves going forward by giving up so much/signing two max players who arent uber eliete guys

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:38 AM (3 hours ago)

yeah this is how i'm seeing this too

that 538 article is great

the first comment on the 538 article is hilarious

"Great article. First time I've seen John Hollinger's stats used for something relevant."

ouch.

woj is unreal

i love that one (unsourced) quote btw

When asked on Tuesday how much involvement Thomas had in the Anthony trade, Walsh jabbed, “I’m assuming Isiah’s getting ready for the NCAA tournament.”

lol.

Once, Thomas brought Dolan with him on a comic-strip recruiting mission of Kobe Bryant(notes): Together, they traveled to California armed with an electric offer: Come take the midlevel exception for a chance to play with Stephon Marbury(notes).

ahhahahahah

yeah, this sounds like an overblown story. this article sounds like it was kobe playing games with the LAL back in 2004. significantly, however, the linked article does say, in a completely serious-sounding tone, that the NYK tried to entice the LAL to trade kobe bryant for allan houston.

http://grab.by/9hnS

kidna looks like tyler the creator

new ilh board descrip: "Seriously, who the [expletive] is Isiah kidding with this [expletive]"

Kinda feel like the trade made both teams better

Since the Melo trade, Nuggets have been 10-3, Knicks have been 7-7. Interesting.

it's almost as if the knicks traded away their entire team and are now forced to give major minutes to ronny turiaf, jared jefferies and toney douglas