Rolling 2011 thread where I buy and listen to jazz albums for the first time ever

Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

its a v modern progressive big band kinda thing, not benny goodman stylee at all--saying this as a dude who owns a lot of benny goodman & basie & krupa etc

Atomic Basie is great but you should also check out some classic Basie with the All-American Rhythm Section- Jo Jones on drums, Freddie Green on guitar and Walter Page on bass, all of whom are revered by players of their respective instruments- they kind of wrote the book on how the jazz rhythm section is supposed to work. They always sound great especially when Lester Young is in the band, especially with Jimmy Rushing ("Mr.Five By Five") on vocals. Actually all I've got on this myself is some old Columbia comps- maybe I'll spring for the Mosaic Basie-Lester Young box.

this is what you want in terms of early basie
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Epicentre_TS/cd_Count_Basie_DeccaRecordings.jpg
but i feel like there might be better sounding versions of these recordings out there? comp was early 90s, i think.

Monk's "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" might be a good place to start, as far as overcoming your aversion to the big band sound, ilxor. Unorthodox charts and typical monk quirkiness keep it from, you know, reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas gettin' down...

http://musicoogle.com/uploads/posts/2010-06/1277067856_1e813cf200081.jpeg

typical monk quirkiness

Can you expand on this thought a bit? I haven't listened to a ton of Monk yet, but I played Straight, No Chaser the other day and it sounds pretty, er, straightforward to me, in terms of his piano playing. #wentovermyhead

reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas

Listen to at least the first four minutes of this, and tell me what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TLEPQZIVOg

Oh Yeah - fantastic, rowdy, profane, funny, swingin' - my favorite of these

The Avant-Garde - think Tyler covered this, just a near miss record all around, good in theory but not practice.

Stellar Regions - have this but can't remember it, thanks for the reminder. with Alice and Rashied so it's gotta be at least decent.

re: Monk, this from his wiki page sums it up pretty well:

His compositions and improvisations are full of dissonant harmonies and angular melodic twists, and are consistent with Monk's unorthodox approach to the piano, which combined a highly percussive attack with abrupt, dramatic use of silences and hesitations.

Certain cats like Monk and Coltrane who were viewed as quirky or far-out at the time by some of their contemporaries are a lot easier to listen to and relate to for non-jazz listeners because they are such strong personalities, composers and band leaders that their stuff doesn't run the risk of falling back into the vast background ocean of jazz. Plus, we have had 50+ years of all kinds of other weird sounds coming at us to take some of the edge off.

otm

well, there you go!

I wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

yeah Mingus and Ra both have pretty interesting takes on trad big band structure. I can see how the millionth version of "take the A train" wouldn't appeal to ilxor's predispositions, but it's a fairly fluid subset of jazz, there's a lot you can do with large ensembles.

many xposts

i think ilxor should worry about his first time thru 'take the a train' rather than his millionth

Funny, but I've heard "A Train" a bunch of times before.

Though I'm not sure which recording/version.

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

^^^IRL lolz

A+

reminded me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.

I have those Decca Basies, and sometimes I get in the mood for 'em. Other than that, though, I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.

All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie.

Wow, and I thought my being reminded of high school marching bands was bad...

Re: big bands -- love the rich tones they achieve, often not a fan of the material. Search: Gil Evans' stuff, Zappa's Grand Wazoo

Gil Evans, oh hell yeah. I played "Live at the Sweet Basil" on a long drive recently and the time flew by. Not your great-grandpa's big band.

the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette (in the case of Ra, they also have a wider rhythmic palette haha).

John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
Miles Davis - Black Beauty
Joe Henderson - Big Band
Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah

^^ these, for reasons stated by others (note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove). the avant-garde is a personal favorite. maybe not coltrane's finest hour, but cherry & the rest of the band are great on it.

(note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove)

NICE!

xpost yeah, i mean, a lot of stuff like ellington or gil evans is even *more* psychedelic to my ears than the 60s "out" stuff. just sort of this bottomless sound that can be as heavy as any doom record, or as light as, i dunno, ambient eno.

Sounds good, I think we're getting a good consensus on that list of records.

Any comments on these, folks?

Peter Brotzmann - Born Broke
Peter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in Section
Peter Brotzmann - Medicina
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
John Coltrane - Stellar Regions
Miles Davis - 'Round about Midnight
Cecil Taylor - Trance

(The album title Stellar Regions is a huge carrot for me, btw, in case that's not obvious.)

'round about midnight is essential miles/coltrane/adderly. title track (well sort of the title track) features one of coltrane's best-ever solos.

oops addderly isn't on that record. still essential!

Derek Bailey - Ballads

have to say, I've never been able to get into this one. the standards with out improv flourishes concept doesn't really do much for me. I would definitely recommend the aforementioned topography of the lungs or his solo aida album over it.

aida is out of print, however. but it can be found online, of course, and it's totally worth looking up.

Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question

pre-Atlantic, pre-Haden/Higgins. I'd put it down about 10th on the Coleman depth chart, which for him is still great.

the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette

otm - globe unity, jazz composer's orchestra, there's a lot of great out large ensemble jazz records out there. but if, you're like Phil and just don't like large jazz ensembles, then, it might not be worth your time. There's too much music.

Large-ensemble free jazz is a very different thing from "big band music," though. I wrote this about large ensemble free jazz stuff for Perfect Sound Forever back in '03.

Re the short list above: The only Brötz on that list that I've heard is Medicina and it's just okay. Stellar Regions is one of the very few studio recordings by Coltrane's final band w/Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane and Rashied Ali, and is excellent. 'Round About Midnight is essential. Trance is a single-disc boiling down of the 2CD set Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come, and you really need to hear the whole thing.

xp - yeah, Phil, we know, but you've posted before about not liking large ensemble jazz - free or big band - or am I misremembering that?

I always have to pop in and say Ole Coltrane is absolutely essential for "Ole" along. Double bass baby.

Albert Ayler's New Grass is great. It's an odd record deserving of more love.

x-post That should say "Ole" alone.

Still nine hours left of the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/wkcr/

If you want to hear some cool stuff done with a big band, check out this album:

http://i060.radikal.ru/0912/4f/9100e7dcd3bb.jpg

The first tune on it (a version of Mongo Santamaria's "Afro Blue") especially is a good example of the sort of massive, epic sound you can't get with a small band.

This is another good example of an album which, at heart, has pretty traditional big band arrangements, yet gets quite adventurous results out of them:

http://storage.canalblog.com/43/04/500408/29169852.jpg

yeah, and something like africa/brass is coltrane (and eric dolphy's) version of the big band sound. always thought it was kind of their attempt to update the ellington "jungle" sound of the 20s/30s.

Still trying to think of suitable punishment for the big band haters: maybe a baritone sax playing "Moanin'" in one ear and a trombone playing "Caravan" in the other.

unperson saying he also doesnt like big bands doesnt make this seem any less wtf to me

*the more you know* big bands developed because prohibition drove dancers away from bars & into larger dancehalls which required louder performers

Hate to be boringly obvious but Sketches of Spain does the large ensemble thing for me.