Just chiming in to say Machine Gun never really did it for me, much as I love so much of what came after it--Zorn, Mats G, Evan Parker (<--- this fucking guy), etc, seem so much more dynamic & textured to me.
That said, I love Brotzmann's Tentet stuff. Even if it is the square Brotzmann to like.
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 29 January 2011 10:17 (thirteen years ago) link
oh yeah, Evan Parker -- Topography of the Lungs
― sarahel, Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
I used to like Brötzmann a lot; these days, not so much. I mostly like him in loud electric contexts like with Last Exit or Full Blast, but some of the late '60s stuff is still pretty hot. Nipples and More Nipples are good and worth checking out.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):
Derek Bailey - BalladsPeter Brotzmann - Born BrokePeter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in SectionPeter Brotzmann - MedicinaOrnette Coleman - The Art of the ImprovisersOrnette Coleman - Sound GrammarOrnette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the QuestionJohn Coltrane - Ole ColtraneJohn Coltrane - Stellar RegionsJohn Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-GardeMiles Davis - Black BeautyMiles Davis - 'Round about MidnightJoe Henderson - Big Band (the title of this one makes me instinctively recoil in terror...)Charles Mingus - Oh YeahCecil Taylor - Trance
I also saw generic collections, titled The Impulse Years (or The Impulse Story, I forget?), for John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane and Archie Shepp -- are those worth picking up at some point?
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:04 (thirteen years ago) link
I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff.
imo his recordings don't represent how completely ill he is, yet (although he has a solo record coming out soon), but i would check these out:
robert glasper, "double booked" (still haven't dug into this one yet but one of my friends is into it)
kenny garrett, "happy people"
maxwell, "blacksummer's night" (chris dave sounds great on the whole record, lets loose on "help somebody")
he also has some cuts on the last mint condition record:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlR1PlNKnJU
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Dude, you should just turn on WKCR right now and listen to the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute and you will get quite an education right there.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link
ornette's sound grammar: recent live album, beautiful sound, mix of his 60s-era approach and some atmospheric violin (played better than he's known to...). Critically acclaimed and highly recommended (if you really like this one, go back for art of improvisers...representative of his Atlantic Records output, but not as exceptional as Change of the Century, or Shape of Jazz to Come, for inst.)
Miles' Black Beauty is HEAVY. Includes some electric funk, infinitely better ensemble playing than Miles at Filmore (the one it gets compared to). Marred a little by unbalanced mix of instruments at times, but definitely sounds like nothing else.
Mingus Oh Yeah. Fantastic. Mingus plays piano on this instead of bass. Lots of barrelhouse piano and shouting. Roland Kirk is also all over it...
Impulse years comps are usually great, if they include guys like Shepp, Tolliver, Tyner...it was an impulse comp that introduced me to Archie Shepp and then to indispensable records like Four for Trane and Fire Music...
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Thanks, those all sound great!
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link
John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde- this one has always been a little disappointing to me, even tho i love both coltrane and cherry.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:52 (thirteen years ago) link
How so?
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Derek Bailey - Ballads
^ after years of playing free improv, Bailey went back and revisited some jazz standards, so this isn't exactly typical DB, but it is a really good record and maybe a good way into his whole thing.
― seminal fuiud (NickB), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Joe Henderson - Big Band
really really really great record
but i'm a total joe henderson stan and have japanese bootlegs and stuff so
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost eh, just doesn't sound very inspired. most of it (all of it?) is made up of ornette compositions, and coltrane doesn't sound very comfortable/sure of himself. not a lot of fireworks betw. the players. more of an interesting experiment than a real success. if you're looking for good stuff from the atlantic era, Ole is a much better bet.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (thirteen years ago) link
Duke Ellington had a big band y'know. so did Count Basie.
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:30 (thirteen years ago) link
(no one ever talks about Count Basie anymore, it's kinda sad)
Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:21 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark
wtf
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link
big bands are rad. they don't all sound like big bad voodoo daddy.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link
haha.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link
I think it was just this album cover that made ilxor run for the hillshttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qG7lCvInL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:37 (thirteen years ago) link
i remember that record being way heavier on the slow jamz than i expected when i copped it
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (thirteen years ago) link
wtf― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)
Insightful deej post, as always.
I'm just saying, I don't like much of the big band jazz stuff I've heard. Just being honest. And I'm not sure why that's surprising, given that I've started a thread about never having tried to get into jazz until now, and that I've been upfront that I'm approaching the genre from an entirely different angle than, say, deej (for me: tons of psych, kraut, free folk/rock).
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^^a+ all-time album. swings so, so hard.
xp to atomic mr basie
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link
its like asking for a rock primer & mentioning that you dont like the electric guitar, dude. i think 'wtf' is a fair response
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Nah, I didn't say I don't like sax or trumpet or piano. I said I don't generally like what I've heard of the "big band" sound/aesthetic. Reminds me of seeing my high school marching band at a football game. And yes, I know that's insanely RONG, but whatever.
Anyway, there are plenty of rock fans on ILM who don't enjoy, say, the Stones or Beatles. Which is perfectly valid, and a matter of personal taste. Not sure how that's different from getting into jazz but having an aversion to big band stuff (which I'm open to exploring, btw, but have a feeling I won't enjoy as much as some people do).
Btw, I played a Sun Ra record today (first time!) and it was nice but not mindblowing. I'll do a full post/review a bit later once I've had more time to process, and the ILM albums poll shuts down for the day.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
its a v modern progressive big band kinda thing, not benny goodman stylee at all--saying this as a dude who owns a lot of benny goodman & basie & krupa etc
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Atomic Basie is great but you should also check out some classic Basie with the All-American Rhythm Section- Jo Jones on drums, Freddie Green on guitar and Walter Page on bass, all of whom are revered by players of their respective instruments- they kind of wrote the book on how the jazz rhythm section is supposed to work. They always sound great especially when Lester Young is in the band, especially with Jimmy Rushing ("Mr.Five By Five") on vocals. Actually all I've got on this myself is some old Columbia comps- maybe I'll spring for the Mosaic Basie-Lester Young box.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link
this is what you want in terms of early basiehttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Epicentre_TS/cd_Count_Basie_DeccaRecordings.jpgbut i feel like there might be better sounding versions of these recordings out there? comp was early 90s, i think.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:55 (thirteen years ago) link
Monk's "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" might be a good place to start, as far as overcoming your aversion to the big band sound, ilxor. Unorthodox charts and typical monk quirkiness keep it from, you know, reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas gettin' down...
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link
http://musicoogle.com/uploads/posts/2010-06/1277067856_1e813cf200081.jpeg
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
typical monk quirkiness
Can you expand on this thought a bit? I haven't listened to a ton of Monk yet, but I played Straight, No Chaser the other day and it sounds pretty, er, straightforward to me, in terms of his piano playing. #wentovermyhead
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Listen to at least the first four minutes of this, and tell me what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TLEPQZIVOg
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh Yeah - fantastic, rowdy, profane, funny, swingin' - my favorite of these
The Avant-Garde - think Tyler covered this, just a near miss record all around, good in theory but not practice.
Stellar Regions - have this but can't remember it, thanks for the reminder. with Alice and Rashied so it's gotta be at least decent.
― sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
re: Monk, this from his wiki page sums it up pretty well:
His compositions and improvisations are full of dissonant harmonies and angular melodic twists, and are consistent with Monk's unorthodox approach to the piano, which combined a highly percussive attack with abrupt, dramatic use of silences and hesitations.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Certain cats like Monk and Coltrane who were viewed as quirky or far-out at the time by some of their contemporaries are a lot easier to listen to and relate to for non-jazz listeners because they are such strong personalities, composers and band leaders that their stuff doesn't run the risk of falling back into the vast background ocean of jazz. Plus, we have had 50+ years of all kinds of other weird sounds coming at us to take some of the edge off.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link
otm
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:12 (thirteen years ago) link
well, there you go!
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
I wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah Mingus and Ra both have pretty interesting takes on trad big band structure. I can see how the millionth version of "take the A train" wouldn't appeal to ilxor's predispositions, but it's a fairly fluid subset of jazz, there's a lot you can do with large ensembles.
many xposts
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i think ilxor should worry about his first time thru 'take the a train' rather than his millionth
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Funny, but I've heard "A Train" a bunch of times before.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
Though I'm not sure which recording/version.
Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.
wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^IRL lolz
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link
A+
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link
reminded me of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.
I have those Decca Basies, and sometimes I get in the mood for 'em. Other than that, though, I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link
All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie.
Wow, and I thought my being reminded of high school marching bands was bad...
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Re: big bands -- love the rich tones they achieve, often not a fan of the material. Search: Gil Evans' stuff, Zappa's Grand Wazoo
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link