Michael Jackson: Classic or Dud?

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Might we expect Jarvo to flash his arse at Jaz Coleman next?

Tom, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Point taken, Momus, but I prefer my Deluded Messiahs to have a bit more substance, merit and meat to their work. If you're going to cast yourself in the image of a deity or even a monarch, you best have something more to say than "Mamma Say Mamma Sah Ma Ma Coo Sa!", "Billie Jean is Not My Lover" and/or "What about the Elephants!"

alex in nyc, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Don't think I didn't notice that one, Tom! JAZ IS WATCHING!

alex in nyc, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Do real monarchs have nothing to prove, whereas pop pretenders have to justify every quirk? Why has Jarvis never thrown eggs at Prince Charles?

The next King Of Britain says stuff like 'Modern architecture is a hideous carbunkle' and 'Genetic engineering is an affront to the Creator'.The American King Of Pop builds Neverland and performs genetic experiments on monkeys and himself while grabbing his crotch and singing about 'keeping it in the closet'.

I know who gets my vote, er, sorry, constitutional allegiance.

Momus, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Nick: I'm not denying the value of self-created personae, I'm not into "keeping it real" and the irony is that my attitude to such things is far more American than British. I just thought Jackson's performance that night was obnoxious and deeply offensive and therefore Jarvis had every right to do what he did. I also find it hard to imagine Nick idolising Tim Westwood, who is at least as much a self-created persona, though maybe I'm wrong.

Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Possibly oversimplifying, but I think part of the reason Michael J can be such a compelling figure to some (if not to all) is that he can trip out and do all these very strange to himself and with himself without us having to do it. Slow-motion catharsis, perhaps.

Musically, my radio-drenched youth would have been poorer without him. But frankly, over the long term I think Janet ended up kicking his butt.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 25 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I think that what Jackson was doing that night was naff, to say the least, and Cocker's response was equally naff. As bad as each other, in a way.

the pinefox, Thursday, 26 April 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

just who the hell does michael jackson think he is? that night at the brits jarvis was just doing what every other person wanted to do... jesus, michael was looking as though he was some sort of god attached to the crucifix. sorry for the digression from his music, but that is too shite to talk about anyway. do you not think though that all popstars seem to acquire this celebrity status above and beyond their actual musical ability? take the spice girls for example. Can any of them sing? are they anywhere near as talented as say, radiohead? But who will be remembered in years to come? Exactly. Nuff said.

jane r, Tuesday, 1 May 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

use other words please

ethan, Tuesday, 1 May 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who can make up such false unsubstantiated statements and still seem to keep some glimmer of a conscience. *Michael Jackson gay??? I mean who cares anyway, but ROTFL... no way. For HOW long has he been in the media spotlight? Don't you think it would have become apparent by now... oh and whats that?... Michael Jackson has been married twice and has two kids to his second wife!!!! *The 'self proclaimed' King of Pop? *sigh* If you had done your homework you would actually find that it was Elizabeth Taylor who coined that phrase, and the fans stuck with it. *...and another thing, isn't it amazing how many people can pull apart MJ and say his songs mean nothing and aren't timeless... but they know the names of the albums and the songs... and are such classics that they are used as covers by other artists... and they go down in history pretty successfully also... OFF THE WALL (1978) - 14 million copies THRILLER (1982) - Still the world's best selling album of all time with 52 million copies sold to date. BAD (1987) - With more than 25 million copies sold, Bad became the second biggest selling album of all time. DANGEROUS (1991) - With 26 million album sales HISTORY (1995) The best-selling double album of all time with 14 million sales - the equivalent of 28 million discs. BLOOD ON THE DANCE FLOOR (1997) - The best selling remix album of all time with five million copies sold

Kylie, Saturday, 17 August 2002 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Classic. if michael is the most famous person of all time, there MUST a reason. Surgery ? Music ? Dance ? Video ? Talent ? Beauty ? Singing ? Perfect shows ? Kindness ? Generosity ? All of those ones ? Maybe...

sansselorus, Wednesday, 21 August 2002 17:19 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

And he's a Grecian now. Classic.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 22 August 2002 10:13 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

two months pass...
Clearly, he's a classic. His songs have staying power, period. I defy you to find a song that gets people moving better than "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" or "Billie Jean." "Who Is It", "Stranger In Moscow" and "They Don't Care About Us" are three of the best songs to come out of the 90s, too. Even his new charity anthem (that Sony squashed), "What More Can I Give" in undeniably catchy. The man is a genius and anyone who fails to recognize this is just deluding themselves.

Josie, Monday, 28 October 2002 06:46 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

I have "Rock With You", "Beat It", "Don't Stop Till Get Enough", and "Billy Jean" on non-stop repeat. Anything after 1987 = DUD.

Dan I., Monday, 28 October 2002 08:18 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
CD80 'portable' MJ go!

I Want You Back
A.B.C.
The Love You Save
I'll Be There
I Wanna Be Where You Are
We Got a Good Thing Goin'
Shoo Be Do Be Do Da Day
Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Off the Wall
Workin' Day and Night
Billie Jean
Wanna Be Startin' Something
P.Y.T.
Thrilller
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel

(80:54 - chronological, It was difficult to cut "Dancing Machine" since it really shows the midpoint of his voice change. I know there are a lot of great latter day tracks missing here that would be good on a MJ solo stuff only disc).

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:02 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I was gonna say! This list is seriously missing some "Smooth Criminal"/"Who Is It?"/"Remember The Time"/"Scream"/"You Are Not Alone"/"They Don't Care About Us" action.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Classic, obviously.

Shaun (shaun), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

classic
i only got around to getting some michael jackson albums recently...
i wish the video version of thriller was on the album though,its much much better

robin (robin), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:45 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

God he sucks now.

Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 8 November 2003 04:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

He's always sucked.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 8 November 2003 04:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

madam you go too far!

stevem (blueski), Saturday, 8 November 2003 13:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Absolute classic.

HIStory and Dangerous are ridiculously underrated. Sure, they're a big departure from Off The Wall and Thriller, but they sounded distinctive and considerably more courageous than a lot of other pop pap out at the time. Forget Black Or White or the execrable Childhood, listen to Jam, She Drives Me Wild, In The Closet, Who Is It, Scream, They Don't Care About Us, Money, Tabloid Junkie, 2Bad, HIStory, even the remix album had high-calibre tracks like Morphine and Ghosts, and none of these sounded remotely like anything else on pop radio at the time. I happen to think they sounded mighty funky.

The most recent album is a total dud though, mostly because (apart from 2000 Watts) it's full of songs that sound like they really really care about being hits, and really really want to sound like all the other songs that have been hits recently. For the first time ever it is Michael Jackson trying desperately to sound like something other than himself, and it fails miserably.

Almost everything else is CLASSIC, CLASSIC, CLASSIC.

syntaxfree, Saturday, 8 November 2003 14:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I liked him better when he was a cartoon.

Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Saturday, 8 November 2003 15:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Jackson Five anno 1970 and his 1979-87 solo output is classic, classic and nothing but classic. No denying that, even though he is a weirdo and the quality of his output has dropped considerably lately.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 01:09 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Stranger In Moscow, Scream and Money are the keepers for me off of History. I'd add They Don't Care About Us, but the "jew me/screw me/kick me/kike me" stuff is pretty rank.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 November 2003 01:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"Stranger In Moscow" is definitely a strong track. However, I feel like the general quality of his 90s material was a bit below par (better than most of his latest album though)

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 03:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I don't hate his music.
True, for the most part, nothing else sounded anything like it.
But it's boring, guys.
Just dull, watered-down stuff that was already being done better, by other people.

Even Off The Wall and Thriller are just PRETTY GOOD despite getting the collective nod from most sides as being the over-exposed weirdo's golden era.

But he's a hands-down classic for his legacy as a freakshow media juggernaut alone, ongoing as it is into it's fourth goddam decade!

Whoever saw such a public spectacle than this ageing, trans-racial, trans-gendered, trans-humanist effigy - shyly, yet boldly parading himself through the media hoisted upon his own shoulders?!?

Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Sunday, 9 November 2003 09:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Let me take a wild guess - you are about 22 years old or younger. Am I correct?

Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 9 November 2003 10:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Just dull, watered-down stuff that was already being done better, by other people.

IMO it was what you call "watering down" that made it better than other R&B.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 11:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Let me take a wild guess - you are about 22 years old or younger. Am I correct?

hey! ageism! and not true for everyone.. alex in nyc is a lot older than that! (yeah?)

Vic (Vic), Sunday, 9 November 2003 12:17 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i'm 29, but how is that relevant?

And Geir, I don't quite understand your question.

Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Sunday, 9 November 2003 13:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Anthony, when you say the jew me screw me kick me kike me line in They Don't Care About Us is pretty rank, do you mean it's just a badly written lyric, or do you mean it's offensive in some way?

If it's the former, then I don't have much of a view either way, it's not great, but in the spectrum of bad lyrics I think it's insignificant.

If it's the latter, I strongly disagree. I never saw ANYTHING remotely offensive or anti-Semetic about that line - surely it's crystal clear (though it didn't seem to be to the world media) to any person who, er, can read, that it was basically saying "yeah, do whatever the hell you want to me, kick me, call me a kike, I remain unbowed"? The whole controversy was absurd. The fact that he eventually changed the lines (to something stupid like "do me, sue me, kick me, strike me") is even more absurd. He should have stuck to his guns.

syntaxfree, Sunday, 9 November 2003 15:22 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I don't quite understand which question you are pointing towards, as I have asked no question :-)

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 9 November 2003 16:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Let me take a wild guess - you are about 22 years old or younger. Am I correct?
hey! ageism! and not true for everyone.. alex in nyc is a lot older than that! (yeah?)


I just turned 36. Michael Jackson is, was, and invariably always will be a deplorably overrated side-show freak. Shun him.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 November 2003 16:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
rampant capitalism in action:

via NewsNow this was on the news wire:

The Essential Michael Jackson To Be Released
http://www.undercover.com.au/news/2005/jun05/20050630_michaeljackson.html

Sony-BMG will release the 2CD Michael Jackson compilation, 'The Essential Michael Jackson' on July 15.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 30 June 2005 11:11 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

And what better way for one to celebrate their vindication of paedophilia charges (and pay legal costs) than to crank out another compilation. Might Jackson have also overheard those placard-waving fans outside the courthouse on the day of his aquittal agitating for a career comeback?

Stay tuned...

Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Thursday, 30 June 2005 12:40 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

record company exploits publicity to sell records shocker

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 30 June 2005 12:45 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Disc 1 is HOTT, but my own version is better.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 30 June 2005 17:25 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

He still sucks.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:26 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

His apologists are almost creepier than he is.

(almost)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:30 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"the jew me screw me kick me kike me line ... I never saw ANYTHING remotely offensive or anti-Semetic about that line"

Using the term "Jew" (a noun, an ethnic identifier - NOT A VERB) to connote a negative, stereotyped behavior is totally anti-semitic. gimme a fucking break.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:39 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Can I just step out a bit on that point and ask the panel (and the world) how and why anti-Jewish racism has come to be in a class of its own, that's implicitly a greater evil than any other type of racism?

Just bugs me.

Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Thursday, 30 June 2005 22:57 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I don't consider it in a "class" of its own, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 30 June 2005 23:02 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Has its own term, Shakey. I suppose that's not really much of a point you could hang your coat on, but a lot of the discourse on the subject in the media seems to follow a theme that there's Racism (such as that endured by indigenous Australian's, for example, which we don't really like, find kinda embarssing and hope will one day come to an end), and then there's Anti-Semitism, which seems to absolutely require a coordinated national response between governments, the intelligence community and public.

It's on-the-nose.

Stephen Stockwell (Stephen Stockwell), Friday, 1 July 2005 00:12 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

well, taking your examples, Aborigines are only discriminated against by Australians. Nobody in the rest of the world rarely encounters (much less cares about) Aborigines. Jews, on the other hand, have been stereotyped, vilified, murdered, and otherwise discriminated against in multiple cultures across several continents. For several thousand years. So I imagine the difference in terminology that rankles you (which I think is fairly recent? does the term anti-semite predate the Nazis...?), simply reflects the varying scale of the type of racism in question.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 15:12 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

classic, of course!

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Friday, 1 July 2005 15:21 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

(I guess my point is that anti-semitism is international and much older than most, more localized, instances of racism, hence the difference in terminology. Tho qualitatively speaking I wouldn't say that anti-semitism is worse than, say, slavery. but such kinds of comparisons aren't really helpful to anybody. "I've been persecuted more than you!" etc. nothing productive there.)

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 15:26 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

anyway back to the topic at hand - Michael's like Elvis: classic for the media spectacle/personal drama, but I don't have any use for the actual music. So duddily classic. I don't own any Elvis or Michael Jackson and don't feel the urge to ever listen to either, really.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 1 July 2005 15:28 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

ten months pass...
classic- The man is a legend. Michael Jackson is the most important musician in our planet. He is definitely the best. He started singing when he was 5 years old, give the guy some credit. Songs like billie jean and Beat it , don't stop till you get enough are easily the best songs in history. I don't know any other popstar who has been successful for 30 years. He is going to be back soon and shock you all!

Tolu, Thursday, 25 May 2006 11:02 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't know any other popstar who has been successful for 30 years.

Um, the Stones? McCartney? Robert Plant? Ozzy? (I know, I shouldn't take the bait...)

Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Thursday, 25 May 2006 20:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Ok, for one thing

The fact that critical institutions have canonized him in the wake of poptimism's Orwellian victory

Lol no. Off the Wall and Thriller, at least, have been in the canon since well before I started reading music criticism in the mid-90s.

Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Saturday, 11 March 2017 21:25 (one year ago) Permalink

Of course taste and all but I guess someone who doesn't find any joy and pleasure in anything he did, at least, from "I want you back" to "lady in my Life" simply doesn't enjoy the same things in music as I do.

AlXTC from Paris, Saturday, 11 March 2017 21:32 (one year ago) Permalink

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

it's a lot like Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac. you ain't gotta like it, but if that doesn't sound amazing to you, I'm a little curious about your aesthetic priorities, because from a mixing standpoint alone, Thriller is a total masterpiece. the chord walkdown after the chorus of "Human Nature," sure that's fucking breathtaking and there's a reason jazz acts started covering it immediately as soon as the album hit the streets, but who knows, maybe Quincy Jones at the peak of his game isn't your thing. but the production on Thriller? gtfo w/any take other than "of course that's great"

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:25 (one year ago) Permalink

love the demo recording of "Human Nature" by Steve Porcaro. imagining Quincy Jones listening to it for the first time and getting the lightbulb over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdy5i_44sQ

example (crüt), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:29 (one year ago) Permalink

the walkdown with the alternating major and minor 7ths is missing from the porcaro demo, which is kind of shocking, because for me & for people I've talked to about it that's the hallelujah moment, just so lush

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 02:53 (one year ago) Permalink

Quincy Jones' whole crew were fusion guys, not just Toto but Louis Johnson, Ndugu Chancler, Greg Philliganes. That's one reason why Thriller plays like the pure-pop realization of Earth Wind & Fire's late 70s run. I doubt Maurice White ever got $800,000 and 10 months of studio time to make a record. He didn't have Bruce Swedien, either.

Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:00 (one year ago) Permalink

That's not to take away anything from those great EWF records or suggest they're anything less than fully realized, btw.

Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:01 (one year ago) Permalink

oh yeah but I totally hear you. EWF is one of my favorite bands of all time and their records are perfect, but Bruce Swedien breathes rare air. His work with Rufus, some of the best-sounding music anywhere ever. put that guy on an EWF record and something magic would happen, I don't doubt.

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Sunday, 12 March 2017 04:05 (one year ago) Permalink

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

Whatever Mr. I-Hate-The-Beach-Boys. I could say the same thing to you about Pet Sounds. We just prefer different emotionally crippled manchild schticks.

Οὖτις, Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:09 (one year ago) Permalink

I am a massive fan of both the Beach Boys and Michael Jackson, for whatever it's worth.

Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:49 (one year ago) Permalink

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself. Lyrics are another matter, probably.

Futuristic Bow Wow (thewufs), Sunday, 12 March 2017 05:55 (one year ago) Permalink

some people dont like slick music, big deal. beach boys / pet sounds is total Estrus style in-the-red production, come on now

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 12 March 2017 19:56 (one year ago) Permalink

e just prefer different...schticks

I think I've explained several times that there's something timbrally going on in the BB harmonies that has always, since childhood, made me feel physically ill, so no, this isn't about giving a fuck about any "narratives." it's just about sound. (I also don't like the songs the Beach Boys write, lyrically or musically, so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit)

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 14 March 2017 03:56 (one year ago) Permalink

i appreciate the Beach Boys but i'm kinda the same way. and ugh i'm a giant Cubs fan but JCLC do you remember the song i believe the BB remade as a Cubs jingle? they'd play it on every WGN radio broadcast and it made me want to die.

nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 04:04 (one year ago) Permalink

Barbara Ann...I think that was the one they redid.

nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 04:05 (one year ago) Permalink

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

sleepingbag, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 05:04 (one year ago) Permalink

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself

Would you say the same thing about Gary Glitter?

heaven parker (anagram), Tuesday, 14 March 2017 09:56 (one year ago) Permalink

so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit
)
cool, we reach. you *do* get why I don't care about post-OTW MJ after all (although swap out "soaring-sliding thing" for "bowchicka-ah-jamawnit-cha")

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 15:19 (one year ago) Permalink

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

this is a weird thing to say but I guess it hinges on how you define "kids"

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 15:20 (one year ago) Permalink

lol at ppl pretending that not enjoying anything mj did after off the wall is somehow an iconoclastic opinion

dyl, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:45 (one year ago) Permalink

or the fiction that liking beyoncé is now a requirement under the new authoritarian state of music criticism. i guess getting ppl like this is the inevitable side effect of having so many polls based on the 'acclaimedmusic' trashheap

dyl, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:47 (one year ago) Permalink

#allgenresmatter

nomar, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 16:50 (one year ago) Permalink

Please explain, dyl.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 14 March 2017 17:01 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

here's my rambling take on Michael in the disco era, looking his underrated (imo) work leading up to Thriller plus a peek at the pre-MTV music video "scene"

https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581"> https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581

Dogshit Critic (m coleman), Friday, 21 April 2017 17:17 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Uhhhhhh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e62M-5-7ajY

The Anti-Climax Blues Band (Turrican), Saturday, 10 June 2017 01:37 (one year ago) Permalink

Classic.

Austin, Sunday, 11 June 2017 01:52 (one year ago) Permalink

nine months pass...

On his worst single.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 11 March 2018 02:12 (seven months ago) Permalink

love it. your piece i mean.

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 11 March 2018 12:30 (seven months ago) Permalink


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