I Confess : What sucks most about your musical tastes and attitudes ?

BUT! this question! back to this fucking question! I'D been (I now see) EVADING it absolutely! the thing that's wrong with my taste in music? Just OBVIOUS - that it is still affected by OTHER people's tastes. I'm thirty-(mumble) years old & i still do that thing where if yr talking to someone whose ideas you respect you wait 'til they've said their bit before yo say what YOU think of something. That's terrible!
But on the + side(?), i suppose it proves that music still has some "social" "relevence" in my life - I was pretty sure that was a thing of the distant past.

Because my parents were born in South Africa, I have this perpetual fear that I am a racist (because I was told so many times by PC American liberals that all South Africans are racist, therefore we must be racists by extension). And I fear that I cannot get into hip-hop or rap *because* I am a racist. I can actually get into white indie-boy (and girl) rap like the Beastie Boys, or Luscious Jackson, or Beck, but I can't get any further.

I suspect that it is more to do with the *texture* of rap and hip-hop, because I listen to music for texture and harmony, rather than than lyrics or melody. (Lyrics are probably *the* least important thing for me in the enjoyment of music, while they are probably *the* most important element, in fact that defining element, in rap.) When I heaar rap or hip hop that *is* "psychedelic" or textural or "stoner rap", (early De La Soul and Cypress Hill spring to mind as examples) it *does* stick to my ear and make me happy.

But still, I worry. Isn't it the most white, middle class, racist thing in the world, to *worry* about being a racist?

This is making my head spin

However : even if I expressed no desire to listen to any "black" music, I wouldn't classify myself as a racist. There's a substantial difference between saying "*I* don't like this" and "This is (objectively) bad". It might be racist to assume that rap or hip- hop is simply terrible music, it's a different matter entirely to accept that this type of music doesn't do what *you* want music to do. That said, the rap and hip-hop I've heard has been satisfying on a sonic level, while pretty much failing to really speak to me on a personal level. But, like I mentioned above, I might download a Roots or A Tribe Called Quest (f'rinstance) song in a moment that could change all that. I haven't enjoyed any local rap or hip-hop that I've heard, perhaps that's something I should try and address. My lack of identification with these songs is probably a major obstacle. Because of the racial relations in my country ( still rife with tension, although definitely lessening ) I'm aware that my cultural experiences in South Africa differ wildly ( in most cases ) to the experiences of the people making this music. But if said music doesn't connect with me, should I strain to appreciate it in the name of, what, Political Correctness? I don't believe my relationship with any black person that I might meet would hinge on my enjoyment of hip- hop. Nor do all black people listen to rap and hip-hop. I apologize for the rambling, but these are things I have to order in my mind.

And Nick- we're here for you.

As for fear of hip-hop, I don't think anyone need feel that it's strictly a race issue. Nor is it really a musical issue. I think for many, it's an issue of culture and cultural content---the association of much mainstream hip-hop with attitudes that border not only on misogyny or homophobia but also materialism and anti- intellectualism and etc. etc. This can be a huge barrier with appreciation of popular music, which tends to put a lot of emphasis on the listener's association with the artist as an individual whose personal expression is worthwhile---and particularly hip-hop, which tends to be more about lifestyle and attitude and verbal content that music per se. This probably explains why non-hip-hop-listening indie kids tend to dig "positive" hip-hop acts---De La Soul, Tribe, etc.--- who general presentation is a few notches closer to the sort of reserved, cerebral model so favored among indie folk.

All of which is to say: that's most of why *I* don't dig hip-hop, and as a black person, I think I can cast the race issue aside.

i think i like some mainstream "negative" hip-hop. i like the beats, the samples, and the use of voices. i sometimes enjoy the emotions associated with the "negative" attitudes. i like big black too. so do a number of "reserved, cerebral" indie rockers. (did we go through punk so we could have reserved and cerebral?)

Anyway... I've been thinking more on the issue, and wondering what it is about the music that doesn't engage me. What is important to me in music, in descending order is 1) texture 2) harmony (and interesting harmonics) 3) melody 4) rthythem (can't even spell it, how can I appreciate it) 5) lyrics.

The more I think about hip hop or rap, I realise that it's nothing even to do with race, or with culture, but simply that the *principle* elements of the genres - lyrics and rhtyhm - are the two musical elements least important to me.

I don't seek it out...but then I don't seek out anything. But when I hear it I find the lyrics amusing (in the same way as the writings of Stewart Home).

After all that, I don't even sympathise with Cobain, before you go thinking.

This is interesting to me because most characteristics of pop music that shift units are easily identified, analyzed and critiqued by those who frequent this board (there are a lot of smart people hanging out here!) There is no loss of words in explaining Britney, or even Creed.

The violence in hip-hop is easy to explain, at least in terms of the U.S. Violence is everywhere, so why not in music? People get some kind of visceral thrill from hearing the description of carnage; same way Pulp Fiction got the blood pumping, or Doom or Quake or whatever.

The misogyny is tougher. I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of those who bought Dre's 2001 are men. If it were all men listening to this stuff, then I'd have to say most guys hearing those lyrics are getting some kind of assurance from them. Having their fear of women relieved by song after song putting the "hos" in their place, reducing half the population to nothing more than "something to poke on."

Eminem sold like ten million records, which just can't be done if everybody is thinking either "Hmmm, this is an interesting portrait of a disturbed individual…what an artful statement" or just ignoring the words altogether, which are in your face and high in the mix for the whole album. In addition to chuckling at his clevery wordplay, lots of people are FEELING what Eminem is saying, on some level. They have to be. Maybe they're all just impressionable kids, maybe not. But critics discussing Eminem have not scratched the surface of his appeal, I don't think.

Lauryn Hill - of the little I've heard (just the single I've heard on the MTV, unfortunately) some of it I thought was texturally intriguing, but unfortunately I got really turned off by the gargling, cut-up, jumpy, jerky production style. I know it's ground-breaking and so influential that even Whitney Houston wanted some of it, but the production style really got in the way of the music for me.

Wu-Tang Clan - all the other silliness, the image, the stunts, the idiocy got in the way of my even being able to take them seriously enough to actually listen to what was going on in the music.

Public Enemy - yes, liked them enough to own one of the albums, though it's back in storage so I couldn't tell you which one. In fact, I've seen them live, too. On tour with the Sisters of Mercy of all people (I can just imagine both bands saying to their booking agents "Get me the BLACKEST band that you can find for support" and ending up with each other.) What appealed to me was the beautifully textured sample collage of their music, more than the lyrical content. Sonically interesting music, that's what I'm talking about. Yes.

I don't know. The only thing I can really think is... this *is* just a backlash. Progress, when viewed from above, is not a straight line, but a series of zig-zags that only look like a straight line when viewed from a distance. Backlashes cannot last forever, and if we just keep going, then when it is all over, we'll be a little bit closer to an equilibrium.

Wild MEN with Steak-Knives = Eminem?

During the last few months I've been listening to a lot of Cash Money Records' records, where violence, materialism and misogyny are all present and (in)correct. Needless to say, these records sold extremely well, not just because they did a better job of presenting themselves as more 'real' or 'gangsta' than everyone else (you scared of Lil' Wayne?), but because aggression was not just limited to the lyrics and visuals: Compare Mannie Fresh's Cash Money work or Swizz Beats' production for Jay-Z and DMX with those of Indie rap producers - most of them (except El Producto and a couple of others) just don't cut the mustard. Fresh's beats aren't just 'good': they are the bones of memorable songs, such as the magnificent 'Back That Azz Up'. With a Mannie Fresh produced album, rhythm becomes not king (a recent and hopefully short-lived pop obsession) but adaptable component, all mean and ready for battle.

The 'gangsta' raps themselves are often genuinely witty and clever. They have to be: the ideas that the Hot Boys and the Big Tymers are offering were first spat out by the likes of NWA and (gulp) the 2 Live Crew over a decade ago. Nevertheless, the 'commercial' hiphop (and I mean Juvenile and Jay-Z and not the 'keeping it real' rap-and- scratch of Mobb Deep, C-N-N et al) of the last couple of years has consistently out-imagined and out-thrilled its indie rivals, and attitude's got very little to do with it.

None of this is 'negative', by the way. Unless you're worried for your kids, in which case you had better switch off now.

At what point do I admit defeat?

- a fear of/fascination with my own adolescence and unresolved issues therein which leads me to my current (3 yrs and counting) backlash against 'indie'

- deadly low attention span

Still it just strikes me that the intentions behind IDM records are so suspect. I mean what are these guys trying to do? Do they have any aim? Maybe that's the point I'm missing. I really don't know and frankly I don't want to know.

Also I am fiercely cranky about people's prejudices against dancefloor dance music which I feel will never really be critically recognised, yadda yadda yadda. Also I'm developing a complex over Orbital, Chemical Bros, Underworld/any other popular dance act and it's fans not being 4 real enough to like the club derivatives of these acts.

What else? Jesus now I start I could go on all day......

I'm more talking about the fact that the actual club scene at which Orbital might DJ is mainly centred on singles. And the vast majority of people never hear these singles. They generally have their own appeal independent of the albumdance bands I named. I think it's odd because alot of the singles surface months later, and the ones which don't are still quite catchy. That is to say I'm not talking about some underground thing here, I just think there's genuine potential for more people to hear this music.

I suppose it's a singles versus albums thing.

you have a bar?

maybe your bar is a gay bar! does everyone smell nice?

If I were a politician, I guess I'd something like "I care too much."

My biggest problems are a) I'm too hung up on melody, which means all kinds of less melody-driven music largely pass me by (blues and funk would be two prominent examples), and b) I'm too much of a list-maker, or too much of a cannon person; I too easily discard music that isn't a candidate for a Top 100, or isn't going to be saved on my permanent hard drive. Lots of "pretty good" music ceases to exist with me.

Um, canon. There may be a song or two about cannons that I like too, I'm not sure.

http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/0074/c47ac3fb-93c5-49f9-8970-6fd575bf8b3e.jpg

i dont have a bar, i work at one a few nights.

someone make me a playlist of newer hip-hop? i will be forever grateful, and make you an old bastard one.

I don't really care about personality, I have no particular interest in music being played live, I'm not especially interested in hearing a bunch of songs by the same person,

Don't think any of these attitudes suck though, they're just what they are

xp: Not gonna make a whole playlist right now, but see what you think of this.

that kyleon verse is so dopeeeeeeeeee

verse of the month

we shld do Hip Hop Quotable thing, a verse of the month rolling thread

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

probably a bigger source of frustration is that i'm nowhere near as much of a musician as i would like to be and that has an effect on my tastes and attitude that may cause them to occasionally suck (not in the 'i should value lyrics or singing or melody more than other stuff' sense, more a 'i want to be more confident about and back up the arguments i do make with more technical knowledge of Music from an academic perspective').

xp: Yeah, start it.

ok rev, thats pretty fuckin awesome.

^___^

this has been the most civilized & erudite goon dogpile in years

see stuff like that i can get with, its mostly those shouting things i cant. their flow reminds me of something, cant quite place it.

old man yells at shout rap

would read a Sickest Beat of the month thread

i like that wiz khalifa fella.

just changed my username, thanks.

I like that Wiz Khalifa fella, too.

so i guess its not all new hip hop that i dislike.

YOU GUESSED RIGHT!

scott you never struck me as a hip hop fan.

Scott is an everything fan.

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

Oddly (or not?) enough, this is pretty much where I'm at at present, at least in general terms. But I also tend to see this in both terms of age as Scott identifies it earlier in this thread combined with a generally much more relaxed philosophy about music (and to a larger extent art and culture, however you want to define it) that I've happily settled into over the past few years. I suspect it was the logical reaction to the overdose of my twenties on such stuff; my thirties was more of a conscious turning away and I'm reaching forty feeling a certain equanimity about it all.

If I tried to keep up with everything I'm 'supposed' to, I would have no time. I really would much rather have relaxed evenings idly reading a book, sometimes listening to music and sometimes not at all. I suppose an earlier self would think that sucks but my current one -- which always liked to do that anyway -- is resolutely unconcerned.

oh yeah there was another thread a bit like this where i said one problem is that i'm letting things like spotify and last.fm have too much control over what i hear and how. i might exclude stuff because it's not immediately available how i want it, i'm listening to some stuff just so it appears higher in my last.fm stats. probably too contrived an approach altho it has been useful as i do get overwhelmed by the choice and need these exercises or motivations to listen sometimes.