Hendrix: Classic or Dud?

It's problematic because EVERYBODY thinks he's a don and it's been said so many times it's boring. I know man, everyone goes on about it... But if you put on his albums and listen to every little fucking thing the guy does then it's actually physically impossible to deny the man his due as the best. Ever. Will ever be. If you wanna disagree then a: you are wrong b: you are missing something c: you have no soul.

I'd like to play devil's advocat here and slate the man but you just can't do it. He plays the guitar not like he was born to but like God put another son together and thought "fuck all that religion shit, this one's gonna rock."

And Jimi does rock. Fuck that shit about lyrics, sure Dylan, Lennon, Morrison and even Jagger rip him up there and plenty more, but in terms of making that six stringer sing like a mother fucker, like no could make it sing before or has done since, Hendrix is God. The lyrics don't count here guys, hello. That's not what it's about.

To try to pretend anything else is crap and if you don't believe it, go to any his albums 5 times in succession, so you get into it and start tripping on the same vibe as Jimi. The guy is untouchable. So fucking cool it hurts and out there, and I mean properly out there.

Vai and all the rest of those souless technicalistas might play faster. But they cant write a tune for shit. Jimi, like I said at the start, is a once ever phenomenon.

Jimi=greatest rock improv musician. Evah.

Paul's take is interesting because a dead Hendrix is so convenient in ways for projection (not that Paul himself is necessarily doing that, it was more the music being compared that struck me). He'd be a jazz visionary, he'd be a dance music maven, he'd be a synthesizist of musics all around the world -- I've heard all these kinds of takes and more over time, and I have to wonder if this isn't so much an attempt to celebrate Hendrix as it is to claim some sort of justification for what one likes oneself using him as a role model for what 'might' have happened. The possibility that he might have turned up like Eric Clapton, say, is often overlooked -- and as much as we might claim he wouldn't, we can't prove it.

What was the band template that the Velvet's created? A quartet with guitar, bass, and drums? They were hardly the first band with that line-up. Whether people copied Hendrix directly or indirectly, he changed the way that people thought about the electric guitar as an instrument. And more than any other artist, he ensured that the electric guitar would remain the central instrument of rock music for generations to come. I can't think of anything the Velvet's did of comparable significance.

It's not wrong per se if they're saying it for themselves -- which they are (one hopes! -- though one wonders the questions about canonicity that goes on in an individual commentator's head, cf Roger Ebert's comment on how he usually says when asked that Citizen Kane is the greatest American film but does so less than because he believes it on all fronts but because it's a convenient and understandable choice). Stepping outside themselves to say it's the same for me as well before I've had the chance to say anything or presuming I will say nothing on the matter in response = sucks. But this is just me being the radical subjectivist again, which shouldn't surprise anyone here. ;-)

or offer an alternative, more compelling interpretation

I'm not entirely sure of what you're getting ahead here, I admit.

Why, they made sunglasses and dark clothes look good. Though to be sure Roy Orbison already had them beat.

Actually, I sorta think that it IS the fact that he helped make the electric guitar still the obsessive focus of rock music as conceived that might explain my unease as well -- is there any particular reason why that should have been the case, why it needed to be 'ensured'?

'ahead' = 'at.' MY BRAIN HURTS!

Template created by VU=classic pop song structure vs. abstract noise.

Kraftwerk-->Beach Boys. Uh, what?

Yes, yes, feel free to append "this is just my humble opinion and god forbid I would suggest that anyone else in the world might feel the same way" to everything I say if it makes you feel better.

MUCH OF THE WORLD OVER TIME: "Hendrix, the tragically cut short legend, the greatest guitarist ever, the master visionary of rock and roll, etc. etc."

YOUNGER ME: "Mm."

(eventually hears songs along the way, some of the albums, etc.)

YOUNGER ME: "Huh. Er, okay. Some good songs, yes."

(relistens over time)

NOT-AS-YOUNGER ME: "Well, you know, I can see more where others were listening in but still, I don't really want to listen to any of this all that much..."

(more or less the present day)

MUCH OF THE WORLD OVER TIME: "Hendrix, the tragically cut short legend, the greatest guitarist ever, the master visionary of rock and roll, etc. etc."

ME NOW: "Mm."

I do appreciate what you've said about why you like Hendrix above there, Ben -- I do find that very relevant! It says much more about the music than many commentaries on the man, as does Paul's take. I'm just not agreeing with you on Hendrix's end worth when it comes to me as a listener.

I will certainly say that I was rather flip in the initial exchange, but we were both dealing in oversimplifications of our thoughts on the matter, surely.

Even if VU could be credited with this breakthrough (and I haven't done enough research to make a judgment), it could hardly be considered as influential as Hendrix's innovations with the guitar. Sure there are a few (mostly poorly selling) "alternative" bands that take this approach, but you won't find many bands on the charts that combine pop structures with abstract noise. However, Hendrix's guitar innovations continue to be found all over the place (witness the popularity of nu-metal, for instance).

The greatness of hendrix lies in the fact that some of his solos are very nice rock-improv but he also wrote songs within that and combined w/studio trickery. I don't know abt specific innovations with the guitar but he got some amazing sounds out of it. Though that can be said for many guitarists in the last 30 years.

''Sure there are a few (mostly poorly selling) "alternative" bands that take this approach, but you won't find many bands on the charts that combine pop structures with abstract noise. However, Hendrix's guitar innovations continue to be found all over the place (witness the popularity of nu-metal, for instance).''

I think you can find the 'influence' of VU in many many indie bands (though it's not 'sister ray' it's more 'pale blue eyes' type things which i do not enjoy). From what I've heard nu-metal riffs are over- produced power chords which is not something Hendrix did.

I'm not saying that the charts dictate quality, but I think if we are going to debate influence, then the charts are as good a measure as any.

hendrix's stuff is 'psychedelic'. I've heard electric ladyland and 2CD band of Gypsys live set and there's hooks with improvisation and certain 'effects', and feedack but not just the two as you describe above, which is why I don't get your references to the charts.

The velvets had far more of a 'feedback assault' in them.

I wouldn't really call Hendrix's songs "pop hooks" and I don't think he had as much to do with the invention of metal as, say, Black Sabbath. Whereas there are thousands of bands that copied VU--as the cliche goes, they "invented indie" (unfortunately).

For one thing, Sabbath came much later. It seems pretty clear to me that Hendrix paved the way for the invention of heavy metal. It's debatable whether or not he invented it himself, but clearly the seeds are there in the way he structured his songs around highly- amplified, distorted blues-based riffs. This is the vein that later metal groups like Zeppelin and Sabbath would go on to mine.

There are pop hooks in Hendrix's songs, but perhaps they're harder to spot because they are mixed with blues and jazz as well. Songs like "Wind Cries Mary" or "Manic Depression" are catchy pop, among other things.

(I have never knowingly heard Jimi Hendrix, hah!)

I wish more indie bands (Ha! I almost inadvertently typed "blands".) used violas.

Pretty much the only thing we can debate. Or we get:

"I hate Hendrix"

"I disagree. He's great"

"Nothing to disagree about. I hate him."

No debate possible.

If you have access to BBC iPlayer, highly recommend this documentary about the making of Rainbow Bridge. Features an amazing array of hippies straight out of an issue of Eightball, and includes an archive interview with Mitch Mitchell who looks incredibly dapper and would make a convincing Radio Two DJ. Apparently the live sound was so abysmal at the Maui outdoor performance, Mitchell went into the studio and recreated all his parts by playing along to the film footage - incredible precision!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001fqf7/music-money-madness-jimi-hendrix-live-in-maui

Apparently the live sound was so abysmal at the Maui outdoor performance, Mitchell went into the studio and recreated all his parts by playing along to the film footage - incredible precision!

Yeah, there's some discussion of this in the liner notes to the recent Live in Maui set, which I bought. (Here's the thing: he only played along to the songs that were used in the movie, so there's a very noticeable change in the sound of his kit from song to song on the CD, which contains all the music from that day.)

VG otm. Mitchell is all-time.

FWIW I don't like Baker at all. True, he approached drums differently from other people, but not in a way I will ever enjoy or wish to emulate. Much of the time he isn't even musically attuned to an ensemble sound; he's just off on his own project.

Not so with Mitch, whose drumming was always appropriate in context.

Hate Baker's horrible clunky drumming on the Blind Faith album.

(Here's the thing: he only played along to the songs that were used in the movie, so there's a very noticeable change in the sound of his kit from song to song on the CD, which contains all the music from that day.)

The thing is, the sound of his kit is the only way you’d know his parts were overdubbed. There isn’t the slightest hesitation in his playing, no second-guessing of any of his choices, and no clumsy collisions. It sounds like he just put himself in the mindset of, “Right, I’m playing a Hendrix gig,” and went for it.

the thing that i love about Mitch & Noel is that they are so often playing ~with~ Hendrix, weaving around what he does to create real grooves

like, i know us music nerds love them & we all know that but i dunno if they get enough credit for that out in the world. Experience was a legit band, and not just 2 dudes putting down a nondescript/workmanlike bed for jimi to go off
which is maybe how they’re seen culturally ie not seen? idk

i love them, anyway, is my point

I had no idea Aynsley Dunbar auditioned with Hendrix. That's an interesting theoretical pair. He's one of the few jazzy rock drummers from that era that I would put on an equal level with Mitch Mitchell, just an absolute monster.

I suspect he would've been too much of a big personality to fit in. Mitchell seemed pretty self-effacing, thus avoiding the trap Cream fell into where all three members were the leader (or thought they were). Does make me think of an alternate world where Mitchell played on Whitesnake's "1987" album instead of Dunbar though.

Far be it from me to stick up for Eric Clapton but, from what I can gather, pretty much all of the problems in Cream were down to Bruce and Baker.

Maybe. Clapton has other charges to answer wrt Cream though…

I’ve got agree with this commentator:

I never understood how Eric, who really loved Johnson and James, could be part of regular massacres of Crossroads and I’m So Glad.

Had to dig around to find some more detail on the Hal Blaine/Count Basie thing, which gets magnified a lot.
https://www.pas.org/about/hall-of-fame/hal-blaine

“I’ll never forget when we worked at the Waldorf Hotel in New York City with the Count Basie Band,” Hal recalled. “Count’s drummer, Sonny Payne, had gotten sick and yours truly got to play the gig. I knew most of the charts, and now there I was, kicking my favorite big band. It was every drummer’s dream in those days. Count Basie even offered me the job of a lifetime. I was flabbergasted. But I explained that Tommy’s job was my job, and I couldn’t think of leaving the group.”

I'd figure many have seen it, but there is quite a bit with Hal Blaine in that movie "The Wrecking Crew" that goes over his personal highs (living very large in Vegas back in the Sinatra days) to back to a working slug who cannot get a paying drumming gig. Pretty wild.

I can't think of many jazz drummers who have been integral parts of a truly great rock album and a truly great jazz album (not counting "fusion" albums that can be categorized as both).

Hmmm...I can't come up with many classic jazz drummer examples (Tony Williams with Public Image Ltd, although Ginger Baker is also on that, lol). But some modern ones - Mark Giuliana on Bowie's Blackstar, and Nate Smith on the Brittany Howard album. Karriem Riggens should count for his work on rap and r&b albums. Chris Dave on D'Angelo, Me'shell Ndegeocello, and Maxwell on the pop side and Robert Glasper and Kenny Garrett on the jazz side.

Justin Brown from Ambrose Akinmusire's band is now a member of OFF! (punk band formed by Circle Jerks singer Keith Morris and Burning Brides guitarist Dimitri Coats).

oh shit! wow I think they are coming through in a couple months, I saw them on the first tour and it was fantastic.

that reminds me that Thundercat is (was?) in Suicidal Tendencies

I asked him about that when I interviewed him for The Wire...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FknoLJ4WQAA5XTB.jpg

He left ST in 2011

Remember Soft Machine played with JHE A LOT. Seems like Wyatt and Mitch were of the same dna.

Robert Wyatt thought so.

talking of the soft machine, i watched that kinda boring rainbow bridge documentary recently and mitch popped up on that as an interviewee sat in front of a console and for a moment i thought it was andy summers, not just looks-wise but the exact same demeanour

Doubtless Baker was a total prick but would rep for the album he did with Fela and the Masters of Reality album he was on (*Sunrise on the Sufferbus*).

Re the question of what great drummer has played on a great jazz record and a great rock record, Jordan's recent Rolling Jazz post may be a great answer---I loved Mark G. on Blackstar, as previously cited by Jordan upthread, but hadn't heard enough of him on the Donny McCaslin Group's own albums, for instance, to know if he'd played on a great jazz record, although I enjoy what I do know by McC.'s crew:

I'm listening to Mark Giuliana's album from this year, 'the sound of listening', and liking it way more than expected. He's always been a great drummer, but I don't think he's had a great (solo) record until now. Love the sonic palette of the group and the electronic interludes.

― change display name (Jordan)

Paul Motian playing Woodstock with Arlo Guthrie was an unexpected story that I picked up from the documentary about him.

I found another jazz drummer in a rock (blues) context that fits in where this discussion was going.

I enjoyed a documentary on Paul Butterfield and it got me curious on his records after the first two. I’ve had the first two and enjoyed them for literally 30 years now but never heard any of his later music.

I got one of those Original Album Series and was checking out “Pigboy Crabshaw” and thinking the drums were really groovy and sounding great. The drummer for that later Butterfield group was Phil Wilson who has a pretty heavy duty Jazz resume.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Wilson

Thought it was an interesting nugget to come across.

he plays drums on julius hemphill's "dogon A.D."!

Ran into a Hendrix cd lot on the Bay at a good price, so got a bunch of the recent live remasters in a single shot, including a couple I never had before.

So for the last three weeks I have been on a pretty big dive into Jimi James.

First, for all the crap his sister and they get, I do have to say that Eddie Kramer has done a good job using modern tools to get pretty lush mixes out of these 60s recordings. Cheese ball marketing and some of those studio demos probably should have been left on the shelf, but these live recordings are fairly well done.

Miami Pop 68 was a new one for me and it is one of the tighter Experience performances.

Forum release is much better sounding than the Reprise one from 90s. Got to wonder how much software used, even if remodeled it is fairly seamlessly done. That was a good show anyway.

Atlanta Pop I had before and parts of it I always thought was some of my favorites, especially that ‘Here My Train A Coming’. I’ve got it planned in my head to listen to it and Allman Brothers Atlanta Pop as road trip soundtrack some long drive this coming summer.

Berkeley I had before but never caught me as a great show, as he had some tuning issues but in this few listens - I Have to admire opening the show basically developing material on stage. That Machine Gun with Mitch is pretty hot. I Don’t Live Today is grebt.

Winterland (highlights single disc)…I always really liked the old Ryko disc, but this single disc is all killer and no filler. Sound was good but this one is excellent. I’d say a definite recommendation to check out.

This always happens in movies, and I guess most people don't notice, but it can be distracting for me when they take a poster of a Jimi Hendrix exhibit from 1992 (with the kind of art and design that screams '90s) and use it in a scene that happens in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq0LycNDU8o