Rolling 2011 thread where I buy and listen to jazz albums for the first time ever

(try to get a non-RVG edition if you can)

Why so?

Should I avoid most any RVG-issued stuff I come across, or just this album?

rvg reissues are generally avoided if possible ... one really obvious drawback to having an old man w/ shot ears remastering things is that he doesnt hear very well

lots of good suggestions here. esp pharoah sanders, john & alice coltrane, 70s miles, black saint and the sinner lady.

jazz things i've likes, as a non-jazz person:

charles mingus - mingus ah um and live at antibes '60
mingus & ellington - money jungle
art blakey - moanin'
sun ra - angels and demons at play
don cherry - brown rice

cool thread, I know nothing at all about (non-vocal) jazz but I have recently liked:

Ahmad Jamal At The Pershing, But Not For Me
Mary Lou Williams Black Christ of the Andes

will definitely check out some of the recommendations here (though in general whenever I try to get into jazz seriously I end up really bored...)

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

Re jazz for little kids: Kids like Thelonious Monk - without being at all disrespectful, the dude was a fucking genius and all, but the way he plays the piano is very Muppet-ish and kids will smile and dance around. They may also like Ornette Coleman's Atlantic recordings (The Shape of Jazz to Come, This is Our Music, and Change of the Century are the proper entry points) for similar reasons - a kind of cartoonish effervescence.

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times. Stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds. Not sure if that means my ear will prefer certain jazz stuff, but as full disclosure, that's where I'm coming from.

With background like that, some jazz should appeal to you right away - Pharoah, Sun Ra, Strata East 'spiritual' stuff - but the main current through the 50s - 70s may elude you completely. There is something - or a lot of somethings - about Bop derived jazz that is just not translatable, if your taste was formed by rock/ pop.

If you start looking for what's not there - tunes, emotional expressiveness, rhythmic excitement, you'll hear instead twiddley-ness, lack of affect and stuff that's rhythmically much too complicated to dance to, and that taps the ride cymbal like a hyperactive toddler. It'll probably just annoy, as it does a lot of people.

There is nothing that says you have to like it of course: there's a lot of Jazz you probably will like, even if the Bop continuum leaves you cold, but. like it or not, it is that which all the other streams play off.

What to do?

Mingus or Monk might be better places to start than Miles or 'Trane - Mingus is bluesier, and Mingus Ah Um rocks, and Monk has tunes that aren't 'I Got Rhythm' with a whole bunch of extra chords. Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

jazz forms the basis for my understanding of genre & criticism in a weird way -- the amg guide to jazz was probably the first music crit i eve read (thnx ron wynn!) and for a long time i had more 'contextual knowledge' of that genre than any other ... so its hard for me to recommend stuff cuz a lot of it is like, sun ra made sense to me in the context of having listened to lots of duke & basie & not really connecting that much w/ certain styles of free jazz, coltrane's later stuff makes more sense to me having known his stuff w/ miles, etc ... like each album you hear helps create a constellation that becomes more fleshed out over time ... the other thing is that seeing a great live performance will help u understand jazz x1000 than if u just listen to 'historical albums' or w/e

anyway, point is no one ever mentions fats navarro but his double-disc w/ tadd dameron is awesome, from the era just before jazz artists could record >3 min songs

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

it's funny that you say that. i'd say start with karma cuz it's (mostly) one long song, but it's such a fucking amazing song you won't even notice the lack of discretion.

Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

yeah, this

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

^ how to ryde in like 40 words

The first jazz records I really got into:

Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Lou Donaldson - Blues Walk
Tony Williams - Spring

Things I started out with:

Compilations of Charlie Parker & Dizzy Gillespie
John Coltrane - Coltrane
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In A Silent Way
Pharoah Sanders - Tauhid
Sun Ra - Strange Celestial Road
Last Exit - Iron Path

Re Miles, I'd suggest In a Silent Way (xpost -- more ambient) and Jack Johnson (more rocking) as really accessible points of entry. Also, Herbie Hancock, Sextant and/or Crossings.

Lots of people very OTM on this thread!

'kind of blue' remains the one record i will never challop about. lol

perfect music basically

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

Well, okay, you mentioned Fats Navarro (duly noted!) -- what else would you recommend?

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc. because I can see some parallels between those genres and what I *think* I may enjoy in jazz record (though I've not listened to hardly any jazz yet, so it's hard to say).

Anyway, I didn't mention '80s-'00s hip-hop/rap and pop music in general because I see less of a connection between jazz and those genres in general, but I like plenty of that stuff, too (you should know -- we turn up on the same threads a good bit). So, as someone who's as heavily invested in rap/hip-hop as you are, what jazz records (not necessarily "rock-influenced") do you fancy, and what's the appeal of the records you're into for someone who's also into rap music?

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

Btw, one loose rule I'd like to set for myself is that I'm going to avoid reading press/reviews of various albums until I've listened to them and digested the sounds within a good bit.

i don't know about this. you're bouncing to a huge & varied genre with no sense of context or history - i think that reading about the music would really aid in your enjoyment of some of these records. it can be overwhelming at first, but it'll all come together eventually (especially as you find musicians that speak to you and track down their other work, etc.).

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc.

You can do what I did as a teenager and get excited when you look at the track listing and see song lengths over 8:00.

aside from obvious ish like rappers sampling jazz, the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music. a lot of folks dont 'get' the jazz canon cuz they're missing the way it plays w/ melody/rhythm, that there's a 'language' going on -- a lot of the best instrumentalists are communicating thru a combination/balance of referentialism (both overt & subtle) with originality. original melodies, original ideas. its the kind of thing u develop an ear for by spending lots of time paying attention to different instrumentalists & beginning to understand their personalities

deej 100% OTM re kind of blue.

see coltrane's giant steps, my favorite things and a love supreme for a few more "way too easy" classic that everybody owes themselves (not as effortlessly perfect as KOB, though).

plus yeah, take brad c.'s advice on early 70s herbie: mwandishi, crossings, thrust, headhunters.

thread is getting unweildy...

To clarify, I'm open to reading about the records I'm hearing, definitely. I think context is important. But as a first-time jazz listener, I'm curious to hear, say, On the Corner before reading a bunch of different critics' opinions and getting an impression of the album before I've heard it. Once I spin anything a couple times, I definitely plan to read up on its background and "importance" and context, etc. But I'd rather approach On the Corner for the first time without the background noise of "THIS IS MILES' [WHATEVER] PERIOD ALBUM AND IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR [XX] REASON AND THIS IS WHY IT IS GREAT" -- at least the first few times I hear something.

Think of it in the way lex reviews records -- trying to avoid reading other critics' comments before he forms his own impressions of any given record. I'd rather form my own opinions/tastes and get impressions without the critical consensus floating in the back of my head beforehand.

Does that make sense?

i think that for people with "rock ears", jazz with a lot of chord changes & harmonic complexity can be the toughest stuff to "hear" and get into. imo that's why the modal/drone-based/free stuff is most popular with non-jazz heads (also why kind of blue is so appealing, besides the amazing solos/vibe...it sounds like most people's idea of swinging modern jazz, with non-challenging changes).

the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music.

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

boom

thread is getting unweildy...

I love it. Rest assured I'll be compiling a huge list of recommendations from these posts and keeping them in mind as I explore in the coming months. Thanks everyone!

that totally makes sense, but it's a different case since lex is already very familiar with the vocabulary and aesthetics of the genre. but whatevs, just jump in head-first and sort it all out later.

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM Bookmark

Yeah. I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me. Still a great record.

also there are already bunch of threads where people recommend all the classic records for first-time listeners, but i do look forward to your reactions coming at all this stuff for the first time.

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

Take it easy on yrself - I don't think you need to worry too much about theory etc to enjoy Kind of Blue! It's all about mood and feeling, same thing with a lot of the records that got people into jazz.

I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me.

I will have more to say on this soon, but suffice to say from initial spins that I've gotten a similar impression.

If you like your hip-hop funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl3XTX8JnQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOa00xl-4hA&feature=related

I mean LOL okay but really, back to jazz, k?

john legend ftw

http://www.bsnpubs.com/columbia/columbia10/col2527.jpg

Just a heads up, I've compiled all the artist/album recommendations to date and I've got 45 distinct albums, along with eight artists being namedropped without attachments to specific albums. I'll go shopping in the coming weeks, lots of listening, and post thoughts on various albums as I familiarize myself with them. Really good stuff, guys -- thanks!

Based on what you've said in this thread, my 2 absolute recommendations would be these two albums:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IyDZgXq8QH0/STUDuDqtkQI/AAAAAAAACTw/s0DpAw_CwZk/s1600/Joe+Henderson+feat.+Alice+Coltrane+-+the+Elements+-+front.jpg
Joe Henderson featuring Alice Coltrane - The Elements

http://www.differentfountains.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/herbie-hancock_sextant.jpg
Herbie Hancock - Sextant

Both are kinda droney, kinda psychedelic early 70s albums with interesting electronic experimentation. If you like Miles' stuff from this era, you can't really go wrong with these two. The Elements is more organic, with some hippie flavour, cool electric violin playing, and even a bit of spoken word poetry (but not so much it would distract you from the instrumentalists). The Sextant is more electronic and experimental, with synths that are totally out there (especially on the first tune). Both are five star albums featuring some excellent performers at the height of their powers.

Whoops, sorry, the Elements pic is huge.

Thanks v. much for the recommendations, those look great!

I had my first big "HOOOOLY SHIT" moment this morning with a jazz record. Honestly, wasn't expecting it to hit so hard, or so soon. I'm not gonna say what record it was yet (I'll get to that in time) but suffice to say I'm thrilled.

Another vote for Sextant - coming from a similar background to you, this was the first jazz album that made sense for me.

great thread, buncha albums mentioned so far that I need to hear too

Other favourite albums that haven't been mentioned yet:

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Albert Ayler - Live in Greenwich Village
Ornette Coleman - Chappaqua Suite
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata
The Mike Westbrook Concert Band - Marching Song

Maybe not essential, but if you're into 70s spiritual electronic jazz I'm very fond of Roland P. Young - Isophonic Boogie Woogie.

I'm looking forward to keeping up with this thread; my jazz knowledge is kind of patchy even within my favourite eras/styles and I've never really listened to much John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Art Ensemble of Chicago or Cecil Taylor for example, even though what I've heard has been fantastic. Also, some musicians have just never clicked with me and I'd like to try again, e.g. Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton.

Nice -- appreciate the recommendations! I used to have Bitches Brew on vinyl in college days, I actually brought it over to my wife's place one night, early 2006, one of our first dates -- we played it while we cooked dinner together. I sold off all my vinyl at some point that year (only about 40-50 records, probably) since CDs were cheaper, easier to find, portable, etc., but always meant to buy Bitches Brew again at some point. So, I'll do that.

I've never been sold on vinyl as an ideal format, needless to say. Sounds like a CD with an array of pops, skips and static depending on the age/condition of the record, and often at a higher price tag given the vinyl resurgence in the '00s. That's another discussion of course...

Miles Davis - On the Corner (1972)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G5tDzTJ3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

This is very dissimilar to what I think of as "jazz" (very broadly speaking) but doesn't come to me as a huge shock, given what I've heard anecdotally about this era's Miles Davis albums drawing from funk and similar touchstones. Before I heard this record, I could've be told this was an extended jam session from, say, Funkadelic or Can, and I wouldn't really bat an eye. Perhaps this record wouldn't be of interest to someone invested in more traditional/classic jazz styles, but it's served as a gentle (if not entirely representative) entry point to jazz given my background and interests in other genres.

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time. There's a lot going on simultaneously in the mix (my daughter was OTM in saying "everyone's going crazy all at once") and my impression is that this record's all about the underlying groove, the repetitions that the rhythm section locks into immediately as the record starts, staying with these patterns for 10-15 minutes at a time, and accordingly letting Miles do his thing on the horn (I presume that's him!), which sounds scattershot and randomly deployed at times while the rhythm stays locked in, providing structure.

I've been able to get lost in this album not unlike a krautrock record (Can strikes me as a fair reference point). Once playing, the pieces don't drag or seem too long, instead tending to fly by quickly; yesterday I looked at the playing time thinking I was a couple minutes into "Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X" and instead it was halfway over, double digit running time by then.

I take it this record is not a commonplace sound in the Miles catalogue, or within jazz in general, but I do enjoy this record a lot on initial spins. There's a groove to it all the way through, a swagger in its rhythmic step that keeps it engaging and lively for me, the novice jazz listener. I'm sure there's a method to the madness of Miles' horn playing that I'm not familiar with that I'll understand more fully at some point.

Rating: ✰✰✰✰ (out of possible 5 stars)

You should listen to "Rated X" by Miles Davis off Get Up With It (which I think was On the Corner outtakes). It's incredible. Unfortunately all the versions on Youtube are weird remix things.

^^^glad we're finally getting around to discussion of some specific albums

the jazz community really hated OTC in general, Stanley Crouch still hates it

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time.

I don't wanna go into it to the degree I could (I wrote a whole book on '70s Miles and OTC had its own chapter), but yeah, this is definitely true. I've been listening to it for about 20 years at this point and I still feel like I hear something new every time. And yeah, it's unique in Davis's catalog - nothing else he ever did, in the '70s or at any other point, sounds anything like it. Most of his other funk stuff is more trancey and relaxed (in the studio, anyway; live, the band was basically instrumental Westbound-era Funkadelic gone even more metal, plus horns). None of it is as twitchy or as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner.

nowadays OTC is the canonical favorite of Miles' electric/funk period - which also includes Get Up With It, Big Fun, Agharta, Pangea, Tribute to Jack Johnson, In a Silent Way, and Bitches Brew (I may have even forgot one or two there). THere are some amazing youtube clips of the OTC era band (Pete Cosey!) floating around

unperson's right that OTC stands out from the other albums of the period though - it's more chopped up, more aggressive, without any of the real spacey/trancey stuff that would come to the fore on the other records

as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner

it's more chopped up

Sounds like it's time I read up a bit on how this album was actually created, then.

Duly noted re: "Rated X" and various notes on electric Miles, btw, I'll keep an eye out for that stuff. Thanks!

A band I just discovered last year was David Murray's Octet. A great mix of hard-swinging bluesy bop and outbursts of free blowing. Their five albums have been reissued in a budget-priced box that's totally worth getting. Killer stuff.

Ellery Eskelin - The Sun Died
Mihaly Dresch - Egyenes Zene
William Parker - Double Sunrise over Neptune
Jenny Scheinman - 12 Songs
Dinah Washington - Dinah Jams
Charlie Parker - Dial Masters
Max Roach - Deeds Not Words
Horace Silver - Song for my Father
Cannonball Adderley - In San Francisco

Oh, and Henry Threadgill too: "Everybody's Mouth a Book" and "Up Popped the Two Lips" are both recommended.

did you get mccoy tyner's "enlightenment"?

"The Real McCoy"—only one i've found so far.

Um, it says right there he bought five Mingus records

mingus ah um, mingus x5, mingus plays piano, oh yeah, black saint :)

thanks for the rec's o. nate!!

David Murray's Octet

yess Ming is a classic album

I like o. nate's eclectic approach

just bought -

Art Blakey - Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
Grant Green - Idle Moments
Charles Mingus - Blues and Roots
Thelonious Monk - Monk.
Wayne Shorter - Night Dreamer

really getting into the Atavistic reissues on their Unheard Music Series, i've picked up all of the following recently:

Peter Brotzmann Sextet - Fuck de Boere
Globe Unity Orchestra - ??? (forget the name of this one)
Haazz & Company - Unlawful Noise
Mount Everest Trio - Waves from Albert Ayler
Luther Thomas & Human Arts Ensemble - Funky Donkey
Luther Thomas & Human Arts Ensemble - Banana

other recent stuff i've picked up:

Albert Ayler - Holy Ghost (box set... fucking amazing)
Ornette Coleman - Town Hall 1962
John Coltrane - Live in Seattle (double disc edition)
Art Blakey - A Night in Tunisia
Peter Brotzmann & Bill Laswell - Low Life

Can anyone please suggest contemporary ('90s - '00s), somewhat avant-garde & interesting modern jazz musicians-- in the vein of Mats Gustafsson and The Thing, Ken Vandermark / Vandermark 5, Colin Stetson, Fire! with Jim O'Rourke, the Peter Brötzmann Tentet, etc.?

Thanks...

You might like Zs. It's not really jazz, but neither is Colin Stetson arguably.

You might also like Mostly Other People Do the Killing -- Kevin Shea on drums

oh, would also check out Ches Smith's projects -- Good for Cows (metal influence upright bass/drum duo) and These Arches (featuring the awesome Mary Halvorson on Guitar).

Oh and you kind of need to listen to William Parker/Hamid Drake if you don't already

Thanks much! i've already got Parker/Drake on my radar, heard Zs a bit but never really listened, but the others are new to me...

anyone else help out?

Vijay Iyer? David S. Ware?

They're not quite like the people you mentioned now but, based on your other descriptions of what you like ("stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds"), E. S. T. (Esbjorn Svensson Trio) and Steve Lehman Octet might appeal to you.

Do you know Bill Frisell, Marc Ribot, Nels Cline?

See if you can find some Tim Posgate.

If you want something really slow and druggy, maybe try Tord Gustavsen.

Evan Parker of course. His trio with Barry Guy and Paul Lytton is killer.

really enjoyed the performance by lllλ - seymour wright on sax, paul abbott on drums, Daichi Yoshikama on electronics - that i saw recently, dunno if they've got any recs out yet - super-crunchy free jazz pummelling

Oh, and Evan Parker made a great trio recording with Eddie Prévost out of AMM and John Edwards, All Told.

I don't think I've ever heard Evan Parker's actual jazz recordings. I've only listened to his non-idiomatic improv stuff + the disc with Jah Wobble.

Today, I'm pulling out this relatively unsung Swedish album from 2004 that I really enjoyed and it still holds up quite well (besides also reminding me of a time when I went to see live music): http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7681280&style=music

They put on a great performance in Ottawa that year, described pretty well here: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14138&pg=5#.Ub-ifhaJzZg

Parker/Drake in general deserve attention. Associated with that crowd, I would also pick out Matthew Shipp. sund4r mentioned E.S.T. I particularly liked Leucocyte.

I'm still a fan of 2003's Assif Tsahar/Cooper-Moore album America (but you might like those two in general).

Maybe a bit off topic, but I've been finding myself going back to Richard Gallo's Urdimbres y Maranas and thinking it's almost as good as I initially thought it was.