The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

moving to liechtenstein

Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.

this dimension of the argument absolutely doesn't matter in 2010 - public black leaders are pretty universally for gun control

you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.

Don't give Quentin Tarantino any ideas.

But at least you're not going to hit the little kid down the street.

No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI

Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

looool. american gun-sellers, paragons of probity. hope all yr texas bros selling carloads of guns to mexican dudes paying in cash w/ phony docs feel good abt not selling directly to actual criminals!!!!

crimewave vs chillwave

to qualify that - some shady dealers may deal under the table, but they get caught pretty easily.
Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:02 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

what is the source, then?

looool. american gun-sellers, paragons of probity. hope all yr texas bros selling carloads of guns to mexican dudes paying in cash w/ phony docs feel good abt not selling directly to actual criminals!!!!

― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

I was gonna bring this up - the drug war in Mexico is pretty much armed by lax gun control in the US

dayo: but guns are enabling violencemurder where crime already exists. More guns don't just generate crime. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns, and violent crime has continued to fall.

― Kerm, Monday, January 10, 2011 9:47 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

fixed that for you

as others have pointed out, hate how 'homicide' is getting conflated with 'violent crime' itt

Mexican dudes with phony docs! Glad we could introduce that element.
You know that every firearm sale in the US from a retailer has to go through a government background check, right? Not a lot of phony docs getting through NICS. NICS will put a hold on the sale or deny completely sometimes if your name and info are overly similar to someone with a felony record.

from a retailer

milo didn't you just make the point earlier that you can easily buy guns in a private sale in texas

milo your argument is sounding awfully pro-control atm.

^^^ yeah exactly. how many guns are (as you fukken bragged ITT) are not sold through retailers? like p sure that any book/article/report on the mexican drug war will point out that many of the weapons used by the cartels are purchased in america. so who iyo is selling these guns, if not 'gun-sellers'????

like lol @ ccw lol @ ur solipsistic persecution fantasyland 'need' to 'feel safe' by carting around a firearm if ur such a baby fine w/e have yr 20 guns and your scope-sight and yr cyanide-tipped bullets but the gun industry/nra's craven response to tightening up loopholes for even purchasing fukken WEAPONS that are fueling a blood-drenched war on yr southern border are just like gtfo

and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS

xps
AFAIK:
straw purchases by people acting as fronts (which is a serious felony in itself)
individual purchases in states where you don't have to go through a dealer
theft
guns smuggled into the country unrecorded

Per NRA talking points, clearly the solution to several related problems is right under our noses: all poor inner city folks should be armed (and educated about gun safety, natch). Then watch murders and violent crime plummet! Because who would dare perpetrate a gun crime knowing the guy (or gal! or kid!) next to them may be armed and ready for self-defense?

idk if this has been posted

Some members of the Capitol press corps took a 10-hour concealed handgun safety and shooting class this week – an exercise less about getting a weapon than getting into the Capitol.

Visitors now must pass through metal detectors, virtually guaranteeing delays. But there's an express lane for people with a concealed handgun permit.

The theory, apparently, is that people licensed to pack heat have undergone a thorough background check and can be waved right through.

So in the name of journalism, reporters covering the Legislature who must get into Capitol daily – sometimes several times a day – took the weapons course Thursday.

It took place outside of Austin at the hunting superstore Cabela's, a sort of saturnalia of stuffed animals, food dehydrators and camo gear.

/fuckyalli'mfromtexas

i admit i am not following this thread but i am not sure how the fact that criminals obtain guns through non-legal means (duh!) supports a gun rights argument

xp to milo

right, so how does vigorous background checks by NICS when purchasing from a retailer help with any of that, milo

pointing out that the illegal purchasing of guns is a felony doesn't prevent the illegal purchasing of guns, fwiw

and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS

― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 13:15 (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude I am 100% with you itt but the word 'apparently' leaves a hole big enough to drop a whale through.

lol @ gun control stopping mexican drug cartels

milo didn't you just make the point earlier that you can easily buy guns in a private sale in texas

and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS

Lamp, you're incoherent so I'm just going to ignore you.

its really not that hard to ban guns. you just... pass a law banning guns. grandfather in already-licensed owners if theyre going to be such whiners about it.

Good luck confiscating 200 million guns in private hands.

I agree with this. I'm all for firearm amnesties but honestly if you're already outside the law you're not going to give up your weapon so.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39345370/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

More significant, ATF recently identified more than 90 percent of the 158 semi-automatic assault rifles seized in May at a “narco training camp” run by Los Zetas, one of the most ruthless of the Mexican cartels, as coming from the United States. Only 13 of the weapons came from Central America, one senior law enforcement official said.

... On March 29, the dealer had sold the assault rifles to a Mexican national who had worked at a Las Vegas area Jack in the Box. The buyer purchased them for cash under a phony name, using a doctored driver’s license borrowed from a former co worker at the restaurant, according to Tom Chittum, the resident agent in charge of ATF’s Las Vegas office. Just 38 days later, the same high-powered assault rifles were at the Zetas training camp in Higueras, Mexico, 70 miles south of the U.S. border, he said.

i bet all those guns flooding into mexico are making the ordinary citizens there much safer!!!!

(and I do mean 'weapon' in that context xp)

its really not that hard to ban guns. you just... pass a law banning guns. grandfather in already-licensed owners if theyre going to be such whiners about it.

― max, Sunday, January 9, 2011 9:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Please Don't Troll.

right, so how does vigorous background checks by NICS when purchasing from a retailer help with any of that, milo

pointing out that the illegal purchasing of guns is a felony doesn't prevent the illegal purchasing of guns, fwiw

How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases? They already have to file an extra form that the ATF receives if they sell multiple guns to an individual in 5 or 7 days. (Formerly only handguns, now is going to be for rifles and handguns).

are the stockpilers generally the same people who are selling guns to criminals, or is it the people who are selling to the stockpilers?

No but I know of at least 3 instances where people I knew online who were stockpilers had their houses broken into and most/all of their guns were stolen by criminals.

protip: get a fucking gunsafe and lock it!

(god so many xposts!)

How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases?

we don't...that's the point...

I was responding to arguments that gun dealers are out on the street handing out guns to criminals.
They have no control over who buys from them so long as the buyer meets the legal requirements.
How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases? They already have to file an extra form that the ATF receives if they sell multiple guns to an individual in 5 or 7 days. (Formerly only handguns, now is going to be for rifles and handguns).

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:23 AM (29 seconds ago) Bookmark

idk, by making it much harder for people to buy guns, by making gun training legal, by making them having to get recertified for their gun permits every couple of years...?

err not making gun training legal, by making gun training mandatory

What point is that?

Dayo, have states that require permits to simply own guns, waiting periods and magazine/AWB caps seen their crime rates drop precipitously compared to states where it's easier?

what the hell is the point of that rebuttal, milo? make gun control stricter in one state means people are just gonna hop the border and do it in another. make gun control a federal law and it becomes hard everywhere.

Lamp, you're incoherent so I'm just going to ignore you.

as long as you dont shoot me!!!

Maybe the drug war isn't such a good idea.

wish he would xp

that we shouldn't be mass-producing and selling tools made for killing people when we have no way of realistically controlling then? xp

first gis result for 'awb':

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Flag-of-Afrikaner-AWB-21.png

i am kinda pro-freedom but i've come to believe that guns are just so horrible they should not be manufactured anymore, iatee otm

what would antonin scalia say abt this thread

what the hell is the point of that rebuttal, milo? make gun control stricter in one state means people are just gonna hop the border and do it in another. make gun control a federal law and it becomes hard everywhere.

Like borders? And untraceable firearms that will, with proper care, last forever?

that we shouldn't be mass-producing and selling tools made for killing people when we have no way of realistically controlling then? xp

he doesn't know how to use a computer ;_;

I guess you and I have different ideas of what 'we do control them. quite well.' means

lol milo I have no idea how you are arguing that the gun trade is quite well regulated in this country when you yourself have attended gun shows which are a pretty giant fucking loophole

i think there is some confusion about facts and opinions

is there much price differentiation across states? i suspect that all other things being equal, guns will figure more in crimes where it's cheaper/easier to get.

What's the scale of gun presence in the US? Like do you get blokes patrolling the local supermarket toting an AK-47?

This is not a troll, I have no idea of the public presence of firearms there.

am kinda crackin up at the idea of drive-by beatings

AA -- virtually nil