No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI. The paperwork requirements for being an FFL are insane and closely tracked by the ATF.
violent crime encompasses a shit ton more than "intentional homicide"
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 01:59 (thirteen years ago) link
i dont think anyone is making the argument that guns increase crime rates? because why would that...? the problem with guns is that they make killing people unbelievably casual and efficient
― max, Monday, 10 January 2011 01:59 (thirteen years ago) link
It's a totally self-serving argument when the NRA/etc. argue that gun control (in the US) started primarily as a form of disenfranchisement of minority groups and the working class. But it's also true.
Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.
comparing non-murder crime states across countries w/ vastly different ways of reporting and classifying 'crime' is obv a super reliable way of saying which is more 'dangerous'
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:02 (thirteen years ago) link
to qualify that - some shady dealers may deal under the table, but they get caught pretty easily.Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:02 (thirteen years ago) link
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Violent crime exists with or without guns. But you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.
― Ex Loin Tamer (Trayce), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:04 (thirteen years ago) link
it should be obvious at this point that british people have no idea what theyre talking about when it comes to the us
― max, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:04 (thirteen years ago) link
might as well just run 'em over
― Kerm, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:05 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost
<3 Britishers, good luck with your Great Pint Glass Control Debate thread
― Kerm, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:06 (thirteen years ago) link
moving to liechtenstein
― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:06 (thirteen years ago) link
this dimension of the argument absolutely doesn't matter in 2010 - public black leaders are pretty universally for gun control
― iatee, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:07 (thirteen years ago) link
you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.
Don't give Quentin Tarantino any ideas.
But at least you're not going to hit the little kid down the street.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:07 (thirteen years ago) link
No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI
Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.
looool. american gun-sellers, paragons of probity. hope all yr texas bros selling carloads of guns to mexican dudes paying in cash w/ phony docs feel good abt not selling directly to actual criminals!!!!
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:07 (thirteen years ago) link
crimewave vs chillwave
― fat sheets of rage (buzza), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:09 (thirteen years ago) link
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:02 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
what is the source, then?
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:10 (thirteen years ago) link
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
I was gonna bring this up - the drug war in Mexico is pretty much armed by lax gun control in the US
dayo: but guns are enabling violencemurder where crime already exists. More guns don't just generate crime. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns, and violent crime has continued to fall.
― Kerm, Monday, January 10, 2011 9:47 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark
fixed that for you
as others have pointed out, hate how 'homicide' is getting conflated with 'violent crime' itt
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Mexican dudes with phony docs! Glad we could introduce that element.You know that every firearm sale in the US from a retailer has to go through a government background check, right? Not a lot of phony docs getting through NICS. NICS will put a hold on the sale or deny completely sometimes if your name and info are overly similar to someone with a felony record.
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:11 (thirteen years ago) link
from a retailer
― iatee, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:12 (thirteen years ago) link
milo didn't you just make the point earlier that you can easily buy guns in a private sale in texas
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:13 (thirteen years ago) link
milo your argument is sounding awfully pro-control atm.
― goldenarsehat.jpg (Schlafsack), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:14 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^ yeah exactly. how many guns are (as you fukken bragged ITT) are not sold through retailers? like p sure that any book/article/report on the mexican drug war will point out that many of the weapons used by the cartels are purchased in america. so who iyo is selling these guns, if not 'gun-sellers'????
like lol @ ccw lol @ ur solipsistic persecution fantasyland 'need' to 'feel safe' by carting around a firearm if ur such a baby fine w/e have yr 20 guns and your scope-sight and yr cyanide-tipped bullets but the gun industry/nra's craven response to tightening up loopholes for even purchasing fukken WEAPONS that are fueling a blood-drenched war on yr southern border are just like gtfo
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:15 (thirteen years ago) link
and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:15 (thirteen years ago) link
xpsAFAIK:straw purchases by people acting as fronts (which is a serious felony in itself)individual purchases in states where you don't have to go through a dealertheftguns smuggled into the country unrecorded
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Per NRA talking points, clearly the solution to several related problems is right under our noses: all poor inner city folks should be armed (and educated about gun safety, natch). Then watch murders and violent crime plummet! Because who would dare perpetrate a gun crime knowing the guy (or gal! or kid!) next to them may be armed and ready for self-defense?
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link
idk if this has been posted
Some members of the Capitol press corps took a 10-hour concealed handgun safety and shooting class this week – an exercise less about getting a weapon than getting into the Capitol.Visitors now must pass through metal detectors, virtually guaranteeing delays. But there's an express lane for people with a concealed handgun permit.The theory, apparently, is that people licensed to pack heat have undergone a thorough background check and can be waved right through.So in the name of journalism, reporters covering the Legislature who must get into Capitol daily – sometimes several times a day – took the weapons course Thursday.It took place outside of Austin at the hunting superstore Cabela's, a sort of saturnalia of stuffed animals, food dehydrators and camo gear.
Visitors now must pass through metal detectors, virtually guaranteeing delays. But there's an express lane for people with a concealed handgun permit.
The theory, apparently, is that people licensed to pack heat have undergone a thorough background check and can be waved right through.
So in the name of journalism, reporters covering the Legislature who must get into Capitol daily – sometimes several times a day – took the weapons course Thursday.
It took place outside of Austin at the hunting superstore Cabela's, a sort of saturnalia of stuffed animals, food dehydrators and camo gear.
/fuckyalli'mfromtexas
― aka the pope (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link
i admit i am not following this thread but i am not sure how the fact that criminals obtain guns through non-legal means (duh!) supports a gun rights argument
― positive reflection is the key (harbl), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link
xp to milo
right, so how does vigorous background checks by NICS when purchasing from a retailer help with any of that, milo
pointing out that the illegal purchasing of guns is a felony doesn't prevent the illegal purchasing of guns, fwiw
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 13:15 (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
dude I am 100% with you itt but the word 'apparently' leaves a hole big enough to drop a whale through.
― goldenarsehat.jpg (Schlafsack), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:18 (thirteen years ago) link
lol @ gun control stopping mexican drug cartels
― Kerm, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Lamp, you're incoherent so I'm just going to ignore you.
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:19 (thirteen years ago) link
its really not that hard to ban guns. you just... pass a law banning guns. grandfather in already-licensed owners if theyre going to be such whiners about it.
― max, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link
Good luck confiscating 200 million guns in private hands.
I agree with this. I'm all for firearm amnesties but honestly if you're already outside the law you're not going to give up your weapon so.
― goldenarsehat.jpg (Schlafsack), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:21 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39345370/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
More significant, ATF recently identified more than 90 percent of the 158 semi-automatic assault rifles seized in May at a “narco training camp” run by Los Zetas, one of the most ruthless of the Mexican cartels, as coming from the United States. Only 13 of the weapons came from Central America, one senior law enforcement official said.
... On March 29, the dealer had sold the assault rifles to a Mexican national who had worked at a Las Vegas area Jack in the Box. The buyer purchased them for cash under a phony name, using a doctored driver’s license borrowed from a former co worker at the restaurant, according to Tom Chittum, the resident agent in charge of ATF’s Las Vegas office. Just 38 days later, the same high-powered assault rifles were at the Zetas training camp in Higueras, Mexico, 70 miles south of the U.S. border, he said.
i bet all those guns flooding into mexico are making the ordinary citizens there much safer!!!!
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:22 (thirteen years ago) link
(and I do mean 'weapon' in that context xp)
― goldenarsehat.jpg (Schlafsack), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:22 (thirteen years ago) link
― max, Sunday, January 9, 2011 9:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
Please Don't Troll.
― Princess TamTam, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:23 (thirteen years ago) link
right, so how does vigorous background checks by NICS when purchasing from a retailer help with any of that, milopointing out that the illegal purchasing of guns is a felony doesn't prevent the illegal purchasing of guns, fwiw
How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases? They already have to file an extra form that the ATF receives if they sell multiple guns to an individual in 5 or 7 days. (Formerly only handguns, now is going to be for rifles and handguns).
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:23 (thirteen years ago) link
are the stockpilers generally the same people who are selling guns to criminals, or is it the people who are selling to the stockpilers?
No but I know of at least 3 instances where people I knew online who were stockpilers had their houses broken into and most/all of their guns were stolen by criminals.
protip: get a fucking gunsafe and lock it!
(god so many xposts!)
― no pop, no style -- all simply (Viceroy), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link
How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases?
we don't...that's the point...
― iatee, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link
I was responding to arguments that gun dealers are out on the street handing out guns to criminals.They have no control over who buys from them so long as the buyer meets the legal requirements.How do you expect gun dealers to stop straw purchases? They already have to file an extra form that the ATF receives if they sell multiple guns to an individual in 5 or 7 days. (Formerly only handguns, now is going to be for rifles and handguns).
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:23 AM (29 seconds ago) Bookmark
idk, by making it much harder for people to buy guns, by making gun training legal, by making them having to get recertified for their gun permits every couple of years...?
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:25 (thirteen years ago) link
err not making gun training legal, by making gun training mandatory
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:26 (thirteen years ago) link
What point is that?
Dayo, have states that require permits to simply own guns, waiting periods and magazine/AWB caps seen their crime rates drop precipitously compared to states where it's easier?
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:27 (thirteen years ago) link
what the hell is the point of that rebuttal, milo? make gun control stricter in one state means people are just gonna hop the border and do it in another. make gun control a federal law and it becomes hard everywhere.
― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:28 (thirteen years ago) link
as long as you dont shoot me!!!
― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:28 (thirteen years ago) link
Maybe the drug war isn't such a good idea.
― Kerm, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
wish he would xp
― Princess TamTam, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
that we shouldn't be mass-producing and selling tools made for killing people when we have no way of realistically controlling then? xp
― iatee, Monday, 10 January 2011 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link
first gis result for 'awb':
http://www.vaticanassassins.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Flag-of-Afrikaner-AWB-21.png
― goldenarsehat.jpg (Schlafsack), Monday, 10 January 2011 02:29 (thirteen years ago) link