The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

Also, 'instead of'? Like only one thing can be done at a time?

I'm totally sympathetic to the argument that yeah, we should go after the root causes of violence in urban cities and that that would probably have a greater overall positive impact on reducing crime rates. but that doesn't change the fact that guns are pretty huge enablers to crime.

yo iatee i know we don't always see eye-to-eye on the politics threads but i just wanna say you've been my hero on these threads, in all seriousness

haha I hope I've convinced you that I'm not an undercover moderate by now

fwiw I would hate to live in a country in which violent crime is so prevalent that I would feel the need to carry a gun everywhere, wtf. Frequently O_O at the very concept that western democracies function like that.

dayo: but guns are enabling violence where crime already exists. More guns don't just generate crime. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns, and violent crime has continued to fall.

Gun control is all about demographics now?

many xps - also willing to bet that "civilians caught in the crossfire" is statistically insignificant even in Philly

fwiw I would hate to live in a country in which violent crime is so prevalent that I would feel the need to carry a gun everyanywhere

yeah a bunch of paranoid militia dudes buying their 6th and 7th guns didn't result in crime increases, crazy

People feeling compelled to carry guns has little to do with reasonable analysis of the level of violent crime. Most of the people doing it are living in rural or suburban communities anyway.

As I was going to gun shows all through that panic, it was people buying their first gun because they thought they wouldn't be able to, not Birchers stockpiling for the Apocalypse.

i think anecdotal evidence is def the way to go here

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

Exactly, tens of thousands of dudes buying hundreds of thousands of guns didn't result in crime increases.

i think anecdotal evidence is def the way to go here

But I can guarantee I was present for several thousand more gun sales than iatee was at the time.

"Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns"

are the stockpilers generally the same people who are selling guns to criminals, or is it the people who are selling to the stockpilers?
i could see a weird freakonomics thing where vendors who would otherwise sell to criminals find themselves in a position where it's more profitable to sell to stockpilers,
and therefore make it harder or more expensive for criminals to get ahold of guns.

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Sunday, January 9, 2011 8:53 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dog... this is not really the issue

intentional homicide rate per 100k in the u.s. = 5.45

intentional homicide rate in the u.k. = 1.28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI. The paperwork requirements for being an FFL are insane and closely tracked by the ATF.

violent crime encompasses a shit ton more than "intentional homicide"

i dont think anyone is making the argument that guns increase crime rates? because why would that...? the problem with guns is that they make killing people unbelievably casual and efficient

It's a totally self-serving argument when the NRA/etc. argue that gun control (in the US) started primarily as a form of disenfranchisement of minority groups and the working class. But it's also true.

Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

comparing non-murder crime states across countries w/ vastly different ways of reporting and classifying 'crime' is obv a super reliable way of saying which is more 'dangerous'

to qualify that - some shady dealers may deal under the table, but they get caught pretty easily.
Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

comparing non-murder crime states across countries w/ vastly different ways of reporting and classifying 'crime' is obv a super reliable way of saying which is more 'dangerous'

Violent crime exists with or without guns. But you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.

it should be obvious at this point that british people have no idea what theyre talking about when it comes to the us

might as well just run 'em over

xpost

<3 Britishers, good luck with your Great Pint Glass Control Debate thread

moving to liechtenstein

Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.

this dimension of the argument absolutely doesn't matter in 2010 - public black leaders are pretty universally for gun control

you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.

Don't give Quentin Tarantino any ideas.

But at least you're not going to hit the little kid down the street.

No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI

Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

looool. american gun-sellers, paragons of probity. hope all yr texas bros selling carloads of guns to mexican dudes paying in cash w/ phony docs feel good abt not selling directly to actual criminals!!!!

crimewave vs chillwave

to qualify that - some shady dealers may deal under the table, but they get caught pretty easily.
Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:02 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

what is the source, then?

looool. american gun-sellers, paragons of probity. hope all yr texas bros selling carloads of guns to mexican dudes paying in cash w/ phony docs feel good abt not selling directly to actual criminals!!!!

― ⊚ ⓪ ㉧ ☉ ๏ ʘ ◉ ◎ ⓞ Ⓞ (Lamp), Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

I was gonna bring this up - the drug war in Mexico is pretty much armed by lax gun control in the US

dayo: but guns are enabling violencemurder where crime already exists. More guns don't just generate crime. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns, and violent crime has continued to fall.

― Kerm, Monday, January 10, 2011 9:47 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

fixed that for you

as others have pointed out, hate how 'homicide' is getting conflated with 'violent crime' itt

Mexican dudes with phony docs! Glad we could introduce that element.
You know that every firearm sale in the US from a retailer has to go through a government background check, right? Not a lot of phony docs getting through NICS. NICS will put a hold on the sale or deny completely sometimes if your name and info are overly similar to someone with a felony record.

from a retailer

milo didn't you just make the point earlier that you can easily buy guns in a private sale in texas

milo your argument is sounding awfully pro-control atm.

^^^ yeah exactly. how many guns are (as you fukken bragged ITT) are not sold through retailers? like p sure that any book/article/report on the mexican drug war will point out that many of the weapons used by the cartels are purchased in america. so who iyo is selling these guns, if not 'gun-sellers'????

like lol @ ccw lol @ ur solipsistic persecution fantasyland 'need' to 'feel safe' by carting around a firearm if ur such a baby fine w/e have yr 20 guns and your scope-sight and yr cyanide-tipped bullets but the gun industry/nra's craven response to tightening up loopholes for even purchasing fukken WEAPONS that are fueling a blood-drenched war on yr southern border are just like gtfo

and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS

xps
AFAIK:
straw purchases by people acting as fronts (which is a serious felony in itself)
individual purchases in states where you don't have to go through a dealer
theft
guns smuggled into the country unrecorded

Per NRA talking points, clearly the solution to several related problems is right under our noses: all poor inner city folks should be armed (and educated about gun safety, natch). Then watch murders and violent crime plummet! Because who would dare perpetrate a gun crime knowing the guy (or gal! or kid!) next to them may be armed and ready for self-defense?

idk if this has been posted

Some members of the Capitol press corps took a 10-hour concealed handgun safety and shooting class this week – an exercise less about getting a weapon than getting into the Capitol.

Visitors now must pass through metal detectors, virtually guaranteeing delays. But there's an express lane for people with a concealed handgun permit.

The theory, apparently, is that people licensed to pack heat have undergone a thorough background check and can be waved right through.

So in the name of journalism, reporters covering the Legislature who must get into Capitol daily – sometimes several times a day – took the weapons course Thursday.

It took place outside of Austin at the hunting superstore Cabela's, a sort of saturnalia of stuffed animals, food dehydrators and camo gear.

/fuckyalli'mfromtexas

i admit i am not following this thread but i am not sure how the fact that criminals obtain guns through non-legal means (duh!) supports a gun rights argument

xp to milo

right, so how does vigorous background checks by NICS when purchasing from a retailer help with any of that, milo

pointing out that the illegal purchasing of guns is a felony doesn't prevent the illegal purchasing of guns, fwiw

and fwiw the dude who shot up the giffords rally apparently did so using a gun purchased from a retailer. good job at making sure he was mentally fit to own a gun, really have to hand it to the NICS

― dayo, Monday, 10 January 2011 13:15 (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude I am 100% with you itt but the word 'apparently' leaves a hole big enough to drop a whale through.

lol @ gun control stopping mexican drug cartels