The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

cars own, america owns

sorry. I dunno about where you've lived before jjjusten but I grew up in inner city philly - stories about innocents getting caught in cross-fire were pretty much a standard thing. so it really rubs me wrong when ppl dismiss that fact of life as 'statistically insignificant - uh, sure, if you live in places that are not big cities.

I come from a quaint tiny burg called Minneapolis you've probably never heard of

er indoors used to carry sw0rds to d4nce gigs

Scottish or bellydance??

latter

ok so 'er indoors = mom, right? why

inner city philly

minneapolis, crime capital of the world

dayo don't you know that most gun owners are responsible and know what they're doing

minneapolis's statistically insignificant crimes weren't as tragic as inner city philly's because philly had more of them.

wait..

We do have problems occasionally with performance swords. Can't get them on Ellis Island, for example. Or to diplomatic events. But that's only in areas with heightened security.

yeah, that's exactly what dayo was saying kerm, good job

boyz2men vs hüskers amirite

xp to Laurel: Ah okay. I think they still do it here as long as they're not caught, and as most gigs are in the n/w suburbs with adjoining parking there's not a police presence.

ok so 'er indoors = mom, right? why

― mookieproof, Monday, 10 January 2011 12:10 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I don't know what that means

minneapolis's statistically insignificant crimes weren't as tragic as inner city philly's because philly had more of them.

wait..

― Kerm, Monday, January 10, 2011 9:12 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

no, just saying that okay if you look at america's population as a whole, getting caught in crossfire is 'statistically impossible' but that doesn't mean it's uniform. your chances sort of increase by a pretty large factor if you live in certain parts of the country, i.e. cities w/ high crime rates. look, I understand most of the pro-gun arguments being made itt, but trying to justify gun ownership using statistics is some bullshit imo. just because statistically only a small # of people are killed by drunk drivers each year doesn't make it any less of a noble cause to try and reduce the number of drunk driving deaths each year.

Hey maybe gun control advocates should look at where gun violence takes place and why, instead of ignoring poor minorities so they can demonize conservative white dudes.

not a lot of poor minorities arguing for their right to bear arms

wow, who's gonna top that? xp

Gun control is all about demographics now?

Also, 'instead of'? Like only one thing can be done at a time?

I'm totally sympathetic to the argument that yeah, we should go after the root causes of violence in urban cities and that that would probably have a greater overall positive impact on reducing crime rates. but that doesn't change the fact that guns are pretty huge enablers to crime.

yo iatee i know we don't always see eye-to-eye on the politics threads but i just wanna say you've been my hero on these threads, in all seriousness

haha I hope I've convinced you that I'm not an undercover moderate by now

fwiw I would hate to live in a country in which violent crime is so prevalent that I would feel the need to carry a gun everywhere, wtf. Frequently O_O at the very concept that western democracies function like that.

dayo: but guns are enabling violence where crime already exists. More guns don't just generate crime. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns, and violent crime has continued to fall.

Gun control is all about demographics now?

many xps - also willing to bet that "civilians caught in the crossfire" is statistically insignificant even in Philly

fwiw I would hate to live in a country in which violent crime is so prevalent that I would feel the need to carry a gun everyanywhere

yeah a bunch of paranoid militia dudes buying their 6th and 7th guns didn't result in crime increases, crazy

People feeling compelled to carry guns has little to do with reasonable analysis of the level of violent crime. Most of the people doing it are living in rural or suburban communities anyway.

As I was going to gun shows all through that panic, it was people buying their first gun because they thought they wouldn't be able to, not Birchers stockpiling for the Apocalypse.

i think anecdotal evidence is def the way to go here

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

Exactly, tens of thousands of dudes buying hundreds of thousands of guns didn't result in crime increases.

i think anecdotal evidence is def the way to go here

But I can guarantee I was present for several thousand more gun sales than iatee was at the time.

"Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama was elected because dudes expected him to start banning guns"

are the stockpilers generally the same people who are selling guns to criminals, or is it the people who are selling to the stockpilers?
i could see a weird freakonomics thing where vendors who would otherwise sell to criminals find themselves in a position where it's more profitable to sell to stockpilers,
and therefore make it harder or more expensive for criminals to get ahold of guns.

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Sunday, January 9, 2011 8:53 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dog... this is not really the issue

intentional homicide rate per 100k in the u.s. = 5.45

intentional homicide rate in the u.k. = 1.28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

No actual, licensed dealer sells to criminals, FYI. The paperwork requirements for being an FFL are insane and closely tracked by the ATF.

violent crime encompasses a shit ton more than "intentional homicide"

i dont think anyone is making the argument that guns increase crime rates? because why would that...? the problem with guns is that they make killing people unbelievably casual and efficient

It's a totally self-serving argument when the NRA/etc. argue that gun control (in the US) started primarily as a form of disenfranchisement of minority groups and the working class. But it's also true.

Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.

Fairly sure British violent crime rate top those of the armed to the teeth US.

comparing non-murder crime states across countries w/ vastly different ways of reporting and classifying 'crime' is obv a super reliable way of saying which is more 'dangerous'

to qualify that - some shady dealers may deal under the table, but they get caught pretty easily.
Gun dealers and the firearms retail industry are far from the primary suppliers to criminals.

comparing non-murder crime states across countries w/ vastly different ways of reporting and classifying 'crime' is obv a super reliable way of saying which is more 'dangerous'

Violent crime exists with or without guns. But you cant slay people from a moving car with a fucking baseball bat.

it should be obvious at this point that british people have no idea what theyre talking about when it comes to the us

might as well just run 'em over

xpost

<3 Britishers, good luck with your Great Pint Glass Control Debate thread

moving to liechtenstein

Yeah, this was the point one guy made to me about the assault weapons ban -- that it only became an issue when white people started seeing gang-war news clips of young black guys with assault rifles, and everybody freaked out. Of course, you also had black leaders calling for the weapons ban (because most of the victims were in their communities), so it's not like you can make a neat and tidy case that gun control is all veiled race fear. But it's a complicated thing, at least.

this dimension of the argument absolutely doesn't matter in 2010 - public black leaders are pretty universally for gun control