The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

The irony is that it takes training to learn how not to kill yourself or other people, but little to no training to actually do it.

Oh, I just realized ntrvp was asking about carrying handguns in public, rather than gun ownership in general. I think this is a pretty bad idea.

fwiw my impression of all the pro-gun people i've known is that they really really like firing and owning guns and latch onto any argument that rationalizes their continued ability to do so ie it's not much to do about anything larger (constitutional rights, ability to oppose tyranny etc) than them wanting to be able to do a favored hobby

oh, I was kind of talking about having a handgun in the house as well as carrying.
Tipsy: Good article, ta.
Re the self-defence issue - do you think guns used for this purpose could ever be replaced by non-lethal weapons, say tasers or some kind of tranq gun? Or do ppl consider themselves well-trained enough that they can assume they could shoot an intruder or whatever without necessarily killing them?

it's not much to do about anything larger (constitutional rights, ability to oppose tyranny etc) than them wanting to be able to do a favored hobby

I think this is true, though it's a hobby with strong cultural-identity signifiers. (Which lots of hobbies have.) But it's also one with its own constitutional amendment, which makes it unlike most hobbies. And that's really the obstacle we're always going to run into in this country. You can parse the 2nd Amendment different ways, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is going to be a big impediment to a gun-less society. I studied it a bit and finally just threw up my hands and said, you know, it's in the Constitution. It just is. Liberals who want the 2nd Amendment to not mean some kind of individual right sound a bit to me like evangelicals who just can't believe the 1st Amendment erects a wall between church and state. At a certain level, the thing just says what it says.

re: self defense, question I have is: if you're conscientious about about locking up your guns, keeping them unloaded etc., if someone broke in and you needed to get at them and load them, would you even have the time to? would the burglar hear you fumbling around and run off anyway? just seems like too much of a highly, highly unlikely situation to be a convincing argument for gun ownership. people get off on the fantasy, though.

(aa here, i at work) orrite, I'll probably be flamed to within an inch of my life but bugger it. This country has very tight firearm ownership laws and it works. If you want to own a gun, you must have a licence, take all appropriate precautions with storage, etc. It's not perfect by any means but the fact is that there are very, very few guns here compared to the US, and there's also far, far less crime involving guns. To us, the concept of fighting for everyone's right to own a gun is, as dayo said in the other thread, fucking batshit insane, even to the extreme-right looneys.

If the main reason to tote a handgun is to protect yourself from people with handguns then, um.

Oh, and classifying certain firearms as 'weapons' doesn't make any sense, given that a weapon is only a weapon if it has been used as a weapon.

re banning knives: Many cities here (Sydney first iirc) have already outlawed the possession of a knife in public. It's enforced by police spot-checking people on the streets. I don't know how effective it's been but the fact is it happens.

Yeah, it's clear that strong gun control laws work, in countries that don't have gun ownership as a foundational right and haven't spent several decades actively promoting and pandering to the commerce of gun distribution.

But we do have it as a foundational right, there have been guns all over America since pretty much forever, and we now have a very strong and entrenched gun culture and industry. We don't really have a choice except to live with its consequences (and try to minimize the bad ones as much as possible).

nice article, tipsy

this morning on c-span some dude was like "the second amendment provides that guns should be in the hands of militias, and that's what we need, not in the hands of crazed individuals"

i was like X|

a militia of the crazed

tipsy: Yeah. I think the US's single biggest block is 'the right to bear arms', which predictably works some into a lather.

rinse, repeat

nice article, tipsy

― Princess TamTam, Sunday, January 9, 2011 5:14 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah that was v. well done!

I'm taking my concealed handgun license class in a couple of weeks, but I have no intention to carry (I don't even keep a loaded gun at home) - it just makes the paperwork easier when it comes to buying a gun (if you have a Texas CHL, the firearms dealer doesn't have to call you into NICS)

Can someone explain clearly (and without bringing up other non-weapons that may or may not kill you) what the benefits are of allowing people to have and carry handguns, because I don't understand.

And though it's largely ignored (by virtue of the political leanings of most of gun culture and rejection of guns by the left) there is an empowerment aspect. Union members at the turn of the century fought back against thugs and Pinktertons with guns. Black southerners used them to defend themselves in the days of Jim Crow. Groups like Pink Pistols encourage LGBTs to carry in order to defend themselves. And, yeah, for a lot of white conservatives who are fearful of the world around them, it's empowering (for better or worse).

Also, if you are pro-gun, would you think it was fine if every single person in the country who was technically allowed to carry a gun, was carrying one at all times?

turn of the century before last you mean

actually, turn of the last century, but I'm pretty sure everyone knows what 'turn of the century' referred to.

yes I'm sure too

Proponents of the self defence argument, do you think that is a univeral truth - 'if I carry a gun I will be safer' - or does it only apply in a country where gun ownership is already rife? If gun ownership were suddenly to become legal in the UK, would my carrying a gun increase my safety?

That is, increase my safety relative to what it is now in gun-free UK.

I'm pretty sure I'd shoot my butt off if I carried a gun.

if pinkertons were also suddenly back in business yes

The only country I've been to with a proliferation of firearms and a high crime rate is South Africa. I know loads of people get about with guns there because (a) they are criminalz (b) they are scared of criminalz. Impossible to eradicate firearms there because border control is lax (and frankly v difficult). Also, there's so many scary wild animals (hyenas, lions/leopards &c.) that people in the country areas need rifles and such. They had a firearm amnesty recently (i.e. hand in yer guns before deadline and avoid a penalty) but I don't know how successful it was in terms of violent crime.

I can't compare SA with the US because I've never been, but I'm sure violent crime and inability to control borders effectively are similar issues. Difficult for me to draw comparisons with Aus as we (a) have never traditionally been saturated with firearms and (b) have incredibly tight border control.

I grew up around guns: I just spoke to my dad, who got back from hunting this afternoon. He's had a concealed weapons permit as long as I can remember; it's just a part of our lives. I've never remotely wanted to own one though. What tipsy wrote here -

The trained vs. untrained argument is interesting, because gun owners I've talked to are very pro-training -- they don't think anyone should own a gun without knowing how to use it, and how to handle it safely (i.e. not shoot anyone you don't intend to shoot). But they're split on whether it's OK to require training

- is OTM. My dad made it very clear when I was young that it's a weapon and it can kill people. He is fully in favor of background checks, psychological profiling, the works. He's more pissed at crazy gun owners eroding his ability to own a gun than any lefty.

I'm not sure that it statistically makes anyone safer (the odds of being in a situation where there are no outs but to shoot are pretty small). OTOH I'm pretty sure that regulated CCW doesn't make anyone less safe either. I don't want to carry a gun, but don't care if some people do.

In all honesty, I think the firearm status quo, federally and within most states, is one of the few things our government has gotten right. There's a good balance of regulation and freedom. Guns aren't the cause of American crime, nor are they solution.

There was a good cover article in Harper's a couple of months ago by a guy who got his license and carried for a time, it had a few great paragraphs on the irrational aspects of some carriers - mistaken beliefs about crime rates and likelihood of being attacked, etc.

Have you ever fired a gun?

I have!

they're loud!

pow pow

makes me feel like a man.

excuse me WHAT?

what to whom

?

what
wham
whom

firing a gun made me feel pretty lame, actually -- i'm not a great shot

http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

My Parents Open Carry was written in the hope of providing a basic overview of the right to keep and bear arms as well as the growing practice of the open carry of a handgun. We fear our children are being raised with a biased view of our constitution and especially in regards to the 2nd Amendment. Before writing this, we looked for pro-gun children's books and couldn't find any. Our goal was to provide a wholesome family book that reflects the views of the majority of the American people, i.e., that self-defense is a basic natural right and that firearms provide the most efficient means for that defense. We truly hope you will enjoy this book and read and discuss it with your children over and over again.

milo z basically echoing my thoughts on this, for the most part.

omg this pic

http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/images/cover.jpg

omg that kids' book. They still accept cheques which says it all imo.

I only did target practice with a pistol but I was awesome. Wouldn't trust myself with a pistol long-term as I kept waving it at people's legs by accident.

they use the same cover for "my parents open marriage"

Hey maybe I should write a kids' book called My Parents Open Strap-on, to bring dildos out of the closet and into the mainstream.

the last gun i fired was a (us) civil war-era pistol (i have an acquaintance who is a gun collector/dealer). big cloud of smoke, no idea where the shot went

Adam OTM about even knives now being controlled here, and the police are allowed to spot-check for them and search/detain/arrest. So someone in the other thread said this was too police state? Hasn't bothered me none.

It does bug my bff who is involved in historical swordplay, because he has to take careful steps to carry his gear - licenced, special containers, cant take on planes at all, etc. But you respect these things.

In fact the other day I think I read they're now making stores ask for ID for anyone buying PLASTIC KNIVES?

But I am not sure if that one was so.

It does bug my bff who is involved in historical swordplay, because he has to take careful steps to carry his gear - licenced, special containers, cant take on planes at all, etc. But you respect these things.

― Ex Loin Tamer (Trayce), Monday, 10 January 2011 11:06 (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

'er indoors used to carry sw0rds to d4nce gigs and had to stop when that law came in. A friend of hers still does it but I don't know whether she's licensed or just breaking laws.

If I suddenly decided I needed to carry a gun for self-protection, or have one in my house, I think I'd be completely crippled by the responsibility of being in a position to shoot: either that I should have intervened and shot someone when I didn't, or that I'd have to - in an instant- apprise an entire situation, be judge, jury and executioner and risk killing an innocent person. It's this aspect that intrigues me and, I would imagine, can't really be trained for.

Yeah I couldn't live with that possibility either. Self defence or no, I cannot fathom the idea of KILLING someone.

my dad had/has a loaded .44 in his sock drawer. pretty sure i wasn't supposed to know that as a kid but i totally did!

Village People otm. Also, I don't think most people consider the process of loading the gun etc., and kickback means you can't just point and fire Hollywood-style unless you're like elite military. Seems a bit like carrying a flat-pack Ikea chair everywhere in case you need to sit down.

i imagine reality is a bit more sedate than that - just training a gun on someone is probably enough to defuse a lot of situations, it doesn't automatically turn you into dirty harry