The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

And yet a ban would hinder a lot of impulse gun sales, and also affect ease of trade/purchase. It's legal even now to seize guns from illegal sales, and a ban on handguns would mean that all sales would be illegal and subject to seizure. And that anyone who is caught with a gun is already a criminal. multiple x-posts

do you have a tattoo banning guns is impossible

banning knives is impossible

banning milo z is impossible

And yet a ban would hinder a lot of impulse gun sales,

pointing out why a solution isn't workable doesn't mean you're in favor of the problem.

xps to conrad

I cannot see how cigarettes are even slightly comparable to handguns.

um because the harm to society at large from both those things is well documented and pretty unassailable at this point? like I said?

and we already live in a fucking police state, I realize I am in the minority here on that though. so by all means, give the government more power over you if you think it'll make you safer.

Maybe if all gun owners were made to a sign a pledge promising not to shoot anybody? Would that work?

ban ammo

um because the harm to society at large from both those things is well documented and pretty unassailable at this point? like I said?

But it's a flawed comparison, personal liberty vs. personal safety. Now that there a second-hand smoking bans, smoking people aren't infringing upon me at all. And I'm never going to buy cigarettes for myself. But whether or not I buy a gun for myself doesn't change the fact that I might one day die from gunfire by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yeah and i might get hit by a chunk of falling satellite, but it is incredibly unlikely.

It is probably a statistical fact that you are more likely to be shot than killed by a chunk of falling satellite.

^ my FIL owned/s a rifle (in UK) and narrowly missed being hit by falling satellite or something recently

NB I am totally anti-gun, just thought this was funny in context

And it's also statistically accurate that i am more likely to get hit by a car. My point is that the chances of a non gun owner being shot by a stray bullet are extremely remote.

"extremely remote" basically meaningless though. Don't give a shit if my (hypothetical) family member who was shot is an outlier or not.

what's your point

Proposed slogan: "Let's keep handguns safe, legal, and rare."

"Let's keep handguns safe, legal, and rarer than out of control cars but not as rare as chunks of falling satellite."

milo otm

Alright, I'm completely clueless when it comes to the gun control argument, so sorry if this sounds trolly. I'm from England but living in the US and as soon as I moved here my friends were like "are you getting a gun?!!". Can someone explain clearly (and without bringing up other non-weapons that may or may not kill you) what the benefits are of allowing people to have and carry handguns, because I don't understand. Also, if you are pro-gun, would you think it was fine if every single person in the country who was technically allowed to carry a gun, was carrying one at all times?

benefits - feel like a badass

people won't make fun of your hairstyle

• don't hafta take no shit

can do the "dance!" thing where you shoot at people's feet

# of innocuous things that make you irrationally angry would start to decline

fun like a muscle car

my cousin and his wife were victims of gun violence

how do they feel about the internet backlash?

they are v strong ppl

Most of the "benefits" are imaginary for the vast majority of people, but imaginations are powerful things and the gun industry has harnessed them as the engine for its sales.

Also, getting burgled or invaded by other people who have guns is a pretty powerful thing and sort of stupid to ignore. You need to have some kind of plan in place in the case that this happens. For some people that plan involves firearms for home defense. Not for me, but I've seriously considered it.

*plans invasion of kkvgz's house*

If you're not actually Paul Kersey in real life then owning a handgun is basically like owning a collectible fantasy sword only a lot more dangerous to yourself and your loved ones.

xp: I have a bitchin' alarm system.

and a pack of chihuahuas

which one?

* Paul Kersey (musician), Canadian drummer in the rock band Max Webster and The Hunt
* Paul Kersey (actor) (born 1970), American actor in the film Hulk
* Paul Kersey, the fictional main character in the film Death Wish
* Paul Kersey, a French DJ (Radio Monaco)

The trained vs. untrained argument is interesting, because gun owners I've talked to are very pro-training -- they don't think anyone should own a gun without knowing how to use it, and how to handle it safely (i.e. not shoot anyone you don't intend to shoot). But they're split on whether it's OK to require training. Of course, most states don't require any training at all except to get a carry permit. You can walk into Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun without any proof that you've ever so much as looked at one. In Tennessee, there's some movement by hardcore gun people to do away with the carry permits altogether, on the grounds that carrying is just an extension of the constitutional right and shouldn't need special permission. But the state makes money on the permits, and a lot of gun dealers make money running the training programs, so I sort of doubt that'll really get anywhere.

There are also the open-carry zealots, but I don't really see them getting a lot of traction. One guy I talked to said it would be too much hassle to open carry, because inevitably someone will call 911 and say there's a guy with a gun walking down Elm Street, and then the cops are obliged to come and check and make sure the gun is legal and there's a legal carry permit, and so you end up spending a half hour standing around until it all gets sorted out. Plus, carrying openly sort of invites trouble of all kinds, from people who want your gun or people who see you as a threat.

Most of the "benefits" are imaginary for the vast majority of people, but imaginations are powerful things and the gun industry has harnessed them as the engine for its sales.

This is otm, and at least some gun owners know it. One guy I talked to basically said, look, I know the statistical likelihood of me ever being in a situation where a gun would be useful is very small. But owning one makes me feel safer. You can't mount a rational argument against that, because it's not operating at a rational level.

btw, if anyone wants to read the views of some (relatively) sane and articulate gun nuts, here's my article. I obviously do not agree with or believe a lot of what they say, but I tried to present their views as fairly as possible. And I got a lot of very nice emails and phone calls from gun owners, mostly just surprised that an alt-weekly wasn't out to get them. So I figure if the zombie apocalypse comes, at least now I have some well-armed people I can call.

Alright, I'm completely clueless when it comes to the gun control argument, so sorry if this sounds trolly. I'm from England but living in the US and as soon as I moved here my friends were like "are you getting a gun?!!". Can someone explain clearly (and without bringing up other non-weapons that may or may not kill you) what the benefits are of allowing people to have and carry handguns, because I don't understand. Also, if you are pro-gun, would you think it was fine if every single person in the country who was technically allowed to carry a gun, was carrying one at all times?

― Not the real Village People, Sunday, January 9, 2011 4:03 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

real answer - CCW is a distinct subculture within gun ownership (and open carry is an even smaller, more fringe subculture that regular gun owners look down on), and its not something you can get every firearm enthusiast to defend. just like with every cause, there are factions within factions that make life harder for everyone with their craziness. being american doesnt automatically mean one understands 'gun culture' which is why asking a bunch of miffed lefties on ILX to explain it will prob not get u anywhere, assuming ur question is sincere

Also, if you are pro-gun, would you think it was fine if every single person in the country who was technically allowed to carry a gun, was carrying one at all times?

the pro-gun people I know think this, yes

The irony is that it takes training to learn how not to kill yourself or other people, but little to no training to actually do it.

Oh, I just realized ntrvp was asking about carrying handguns in public, rather than gun ownership in general. I think this is a pretty bad idea.

fwiw my impression of all the pro-gun people i've known is that they really really like firing and owning guns and latch onto any argument that rationalizes their continued ability to do so ie it's not much to do about anything larger (constitutional rights, ability to oppose tyranny etc) than them wanting to be able to do a favored hobby

oh, I was kind of talking about having a handgun in the house as well as carrying.
Tipsy: Good article, ta.
Re the self-defence issue - do you think guns used for this purpose could ever be replaced by non-lethal weapons, say tasers or some kind of tranq gun? Or do ppl consider themselves well-trained enough that they can assume they could shoot an intruder or whatever without necessarily killing them?

it's not much to do about anything larger (constitutional rights, ability to oppose tyranny etc) than them wanting to be able to do a favored hobby

I think this is true, though it's a hobby with strong cultural-identity signifiers. (Which lots of hobbies have.) But it's also one with its own constitutional amendment, which makes it unlike most hobbies. And that's really the obstacle we're always going to run into in this country. You can parse the 2nd Amendment different ways, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is going to be a big impediment to a gun-less society. I studied it a bit and finally just threw up my hands and said, you know, it's in the Constitution. It just is. Liberals who want the 2nd Amendment to not mean some kind of individual right sound a bit to me like evangelicals who just can't believe the 1st Amendment erects a wall between church and state. At a certain level, the thing just says what it says.

re: self defense, question I have is: if you're conscientious about about locking up your guns, keeping them unloaded etc., if someone broke in and you needed to get at them and load them, would you even have the time to? would the burglar hear you fumbling around and run off anyway? just seems like too much of a highly, highly unlikely situation to be a convincing argument for gun ownership. people get off on the fantasy, though.

(aa here, i at work) orrite, I'll probably be flamed to within an inch of my life but bugger it. This country has very tight firearm ownership laws and it works. If you want to own a gun, you must have a licence, take all appropriate precautions with storage, etc. It's not perfect by any means but the fact is that there are very, very few guns here compared to the US, and there's also far, far less crime involving guns. To us, the concept of fighting for everyone's right to own a gun is, as dayo said in the other thread, fucking batshit insane, even to the extreme-right looneys.

If the main reason to tote a handgun is to protect yourself from people with handguns then, um.

Oh, and classifying certain firearms as 'weapons' doesn't make any sense, given that a weapon is only a weapon if it has been used as a weapon.

re banning knives: Many cities here (Sydney first iirc) have already outlawed the possession of a knife in public. It's enforced by police spot-checking people on the streets. I don't know how effective it's been but the fact is it happens.

Yeah, it's clear that strong gun control laws work, in countries that don't have gun ownership as a foundational right and haven't spent several decades actively promoting and pandering to the commerce of gun distribution.

But we do have it as a foundational right, there have been guns all over America since pretty much forever, and we now have a very strong and entrenched gun culture and industry. We don't really have a choice except to live with its consequences (and try to minimize the bad ones as much as possible).

nice article, tipsy