Israel to World: "Suck It."

Israel to Cyclists: Suck It

Israeli activist imprisoned for protest against Gaza blockade

Jonathan Pollak handed three-month term after taking part in Tel Aviv protest cycle ride in January 2008

that was interesting. Is it unusual for these kind of sentences to be dished out to Israeli activists?

It is unusual for the level of the offence but he did already have a three months suspended sentence for something else.

still not sure of the "offense" here tbh /self-righteous cyclist

Things seem to be getting worse and worse:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/report-44-of-israeli-jews-support-rabbis-edict-forbidding-rentals-to-arabs-1.333825
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/head-reform-rabbi-israeli-society-is-falling-into-a-deep-pit-of-racism-1.333996

OTOH, was impressed with this, given the source:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2008/dec/04/the-time-has-come-to-say-these-things/

makes me think about how sometimes politicians who actually wish to do the right thing can be hamstrung by politics

too bad thats from 2008

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/01/is-israel-still-a-democracy/69377/

Anyway, when the Katsav verdict came down, I didn't quite realize who had delivered it. Now I do, and it is sort of stunning. There are six aspects of the Katsav trial which prove that Israel is still a democracy, and a country very much unlike all of its neighbors.

1) An ex-president of the nation was brought to account for his alleged crimes. Doesn't happen too often in Israel's neighorhood.
2) The crimes in question were crimes against women. Happens only rarely in the non-democratic East.
3) Two of the three judges in the Katsav case were women -- doesn't happen.
4) Here's the stunner -- the head judge of the three-judge panel was an Arab Israeli named Geoge Karra.
5) Maybe this is the real stunner -- No one in Israel seemed to think it abnormal for an Arab citizen of the Jewish state to sit in judgment of a Jewish ex-president.
6) And, by the way, the president was convicted.

An ex-President being convicted for crimes? Doesn't even happen in US.

nobody talkin about the leaked documents yet?

apparently condoleeza rice suggested that palestinian refugees could be resettled in chile

o_O

Refugees in countries like Jordan & Lebanon should be removed from camps and settled in those countries, not sent to Chile.

I think most human beings with beating hearts instead of ashes and tears would agree with you

i hear the weather in chile is nice, though. almost....mediterranean.

Joodoo Chile

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/61477/five-jews-murdered-in-west-bank/

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-israel-s-approval-of-new-west-bank-homes-counters-peace-efforts-1.348998

Both items are sad

ugh

i don't want to sound callous, but i wonder if modern israelis are sort of now understanding what real regional insecurity feels like. it's too bad the last 30 years of stable dictatorships didn't provide enough room for them to get their house in order.

somehow I sort of doubt it

i mean, one of the really exciting things about the arab uprisings is that the permanent logjam of israel/palestine is getting a mighty shove. egypt in particular was one very large, very firm log. but it's scary too.

scary in the sense that Israel is probably going to be in another war shortly? yes, probably

Are you sure? With Palestinians? The surrounding countries are in disarray with protests or economic woes following the recession and protests. I don't think Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt want to get in a war with Israel right now.

I'm lookin a few years down the road

for example, there's going to be a lot of internal pressure on whatever new gov't emerges in Egypt not to honor the embargo, once that starts being violated, Israel will start some shit.

Everybody! Everybody! Stop fighting so we can get organized and go to war!

lol

kinda think from an israeli perspective the region's always been 'insecure'

that's what i meant. and now i have to figure that it's like oh, things can get a lot, lot, lot more insecure than that.

I got the impression when i was over there that there's a huge amount of unease but quite a bit of cautious optimism as well. There's a suggestion that with politicians more focused on either building a new democratic agenda or making real efforts to address the needs of their people, there'll be less 'ignore the fact you've got no educational prospects - look at what Israel just did!' rhetoric. Egypt's the major concern at the moment, but there's still so little clarity over what's going to happen there, i don't think any Israeli policy has really crystalised. If it is a semi-legitimate democracy, backed by international good will, that isn't overtly agressive but doesn't put much effort into securing the border, Israel's not going to be in a great position to go gunning for them.

more likely, shrug, business as usual xp

captain optimism here

Israel frankly screwed itself. It refused to make (or at least enforce) compromises, elected a far right guy even less likely to make compromises, then got the least sympathetic US president in recent memory. And now the whole region is falling apart, and pushing Israel off the political map (figuratively). They couldn't possibly have set themselves up for trouble better if they tried. Though maybe they did!

If this leads to countries like Syria doing less talking out of both sides of their mouth re the Palestinians (oh Israel should settle all of them, but we'll keep our Palestinian refugee community in refugee camps and refuse to let them integrate into Syrian society) then I think it'll be better for everyone. Especially if the 'right of return' becomes a non-issue because refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt become settled then there will be a lot more space to come to a compromise. I think it's always been a super longshot making a lasting peace between Israel + Palestinians while Israel is surrounded by violent demagogues -- if you don't feel safe with your supposed 'allies' you certainly won't feel safe with the ppl firing rockets into your borders. A change in governments could change everything.

And I think this 'oh this is real regional uncertainty' thing is totally insane. Is this more uncertain than the second intifada? Or the Yom Kippur war (which has the same kind of psychic impact on Israel today as Vietnam still holds on the US)? Or living on the border of Lebanon or Gaza? Things have been uncertain for a long time. They're maybe just uncertain in different ways now.

yom kippur war was a long time ago - my instinct is that yes, the current evolving situation is less secure for Israel than any other time in the last 20-30 years (more insecure for everyone basically) but I am willing to be schooled on this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

Goldstone says that if he wrote his report today it would've come out different. Good job, dude!

Did you actually read the article? He's not really taking anything back, just adding some nuance.

I'm going to turn your question back on you -- it's quite clear that he's taking a number of things back. First of all, "If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document" is a direct quote from him, so I didn't write anything that he didn't say himself. Second of all,

Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn’t negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.

This is a significant shift.

(oh Israel should settle all of them, but we'll keep our Palestinian refugee community in refugee camps and refuse to let them integrate into Syrian society)

That might be Lebanon you are thinking of. My understanding is that Palestinians in Syria do not have to live in camps and are allowed to integrate into Syrian society.

For obvious reasons it's hard to know exactly what the situation is in the Syria but afaik Palestinian refugees are not allowed to become citizens. There are 129,457 refugees officially registered in 9 Syrian camps (UNRWA stats) and I've heard that the actual number (including unregistered refugees) is as much as 400,000. Life is Lebanon is for sure worse (and in terms of percentages, 27.1% of Syria's Palestinian population live in RRCs, 53.1% of Lebanon's do - by comparison 25.4% of the West Bank is in RRCs and 45.8% of Gaza). All these countries should be settling their entire Palestinian population though -- the vast majority of these registered refugees were born in these countries. Of course even Jordan, where quality of life is relatively high by comparison, is holding out for the right of return for the refugee populace and won't settle their refugees.

More UNRWA statistics: http://www.unrwa.org/userfiles/2011031065331.pdf

My understanding is that while Palestinians in Syria cannot become Syrian citizens they pretty much have the same rights as Syrians (with all the caveats that that implies).

What I have heard from someone who lives in Syria is that many Palestinians live in camps because they like living with other Palestinians. And the word "camp" is a bit misleading, calling to mind rows of tents or chalet-style accomodation. In actuality they are basically neighbourhoods.

I don't believe there are any refugee camps that are tent camps. Jabalia Camp for instance is primarily housing (highest density, biggest camp in Gaza). So I wouldn't read much into that. Plus "they want to be with their own ppl" is classic anti-immigrant sentiment. It helps explain why their communities are stagnant, economically depressed, dysfunctional- "oh they like living that way"

But you might be right that it's still better than Lebanon. Not much of a hurdle to leap.

Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria are a different sort of "immigrant" than most others I'd have thought

Different than what? Tons of immigrants go to new countries bc they are otherwise refugees. It's like a primary cause for immigration.

Sorry, just seemed like you were talking about Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon as the same kind of person who might move from China to New York, live in Chinatown, be happy there, etc

Plus "they want to be with their own ppl" is classic anti-immigrant sentiment.

I'm pretty certain my friend heard from a Palestinian that some Palestinians in Syria like living with other Palestinians, and do so, while others do not and so live away from Palestinian areas.

I don't want to sound glib or snarky so please don't take this that way, but claiming that the refugees enjoy living in RCs because they like being among their own kind and not because they are denied citizenship, have less economic opportunities and are disenfranchised sounds like some kind of excuse for their conditions.

And again, without being glib, my understanding is that Palestinians in Syria do not have to live in camps and many choose not to.

I don't see what that is relevant to. Only 45.8% of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are living in camps. They also don't "have" to. That doesn't change anything about them being second class non-even-citizens, or change the fact that due to economic/social/political circumstances they "choose" to live in refugee camps.