should i give the grateful dead a chance?

How about "relaxed" and "loping" rather than "sluggish"? Plenty of great bands aren't speed demons.

I still haven't gotten the Cornell '77 thing, even though it seems to be a piece of cake to find.

yea, the relaxed thing is one of the things i like most about the dead. it makes me feel relaxed and happy.

they're over-praised, obv, which lends itself to intense criticism.

I'm no fanatic, trust me, but in a certain time, place and mood they are perfect.

when casey jones came on the radio the other night i nearly cried. it was perfect.

lololololol @ calling bill and phil "lazy" motherfuckers are work horses.

Seriously. Bill is the fucking MVP of the Dead.

How about "relaxed" and "loping" rather than "sluggish"? Plenty of great bands aren't speed demons.

It has nothing to do with speed. Al Jackson and Jerome Brailey are relaxed and loping as fuck. Kreutzmann and Hart always struck me as just plain uninterested and unfocused. I swear, it's like they're high or something...

i like the dead - theyre kinda a downr tho

It has nothing to do with speed. Al Jackson and Jerome Brailey are relaxed and loping as fuck. Kreutzmann and Hart always struck me as just plain uninterested and unfocused. I swear, it's like they're high or something...

1) has you listened to country music b4?

2) yes they are high or something

but listening to studio dead albums while high = major dud

except terrapin station of course

1) has you listened to country music b4?

Yes. The relationship of the Dead's drummers to, say, Merle Haggard's drummer (especially on the mid-60s stuff) or Ronnie Tutt is tenuous at best. Focus is what's missing from Bill & Mickey.

I love the Dead, but I have never found the drumming to be particularly memorable.

they could be good. they could be bad. i think this is pretty well known. and i do think that they sometimes confused each other in a stoned way. almost every other rock band on the planet in the 60's and 70's had better drummers, but that's what makes the dead the dead for better or worse. "they might not have been the best at what they did..." etc, etc.

i duno those early 70s shows after mickey left and bill holds the shit down ... he sounds pretty amazing on those.

i do love the dead too. for better or worse. but i'm more in it for hunter/garcia than anything else. they wrote a lot of wonderful songs that i love.

"he sounds pretty amazing on those."

they could be great! but they could also be terrible. or asleep. or something. but so could everyone else in the dead from time to time. it's no big deal. they played four million shows. plenty of highlights.

not every band has every bad gig immortalized on tape for a 30 year period. that's one thing you have to remember. there is a whole lot more bad to hear.

It's funny, people complain about the drumming, but it's 1968 versions of "That's It For The Other One" that first got me into the Dead. I think the drumming there tends to be awesome, and just what the song needs: not swinging, but just tribal pounding.

"but listening to studio dead albums while high = major dud"

this isn't true! but i've always loved studio dead albums. most of them anyway. i actually like all of their non-bootleg studio/live albums/recordings up to in the dark. and i even tried to like in the dark but i gave up after a while.

American Beauty and Workingman's Dead are both snappy acoustic albums full of fine songs rather than rambling instrumental stuff.

I think they're worth checking out rather than applying some knee jerk reaction. But obviously lots of people don't agree.

-- Winkelmann, Monday, July 22, 2002 7:00 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Link
rather than applying some knee jerk reaction

Did you even read my fucking post? This is not some knee jerk reaction. This is a carefully thought out aesthetic decision that I have reached after repeated exposure and more consideration that I would give to most bands who repeatedly bombarded me with shit.

-- kate, Monday, July 22, 2002 7:00 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Link

hahaha, I know Winkelmann -- I didn't know he ever posted to ILM. I should tell him it's safe to come back now. (on 2nd thought, it's not really)

i think everyone should forget about the dead and give don ellis a chance. his 1966 line-up had two drummers, a percussionist, and THREE bass players!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MFf_190Vnr4

scott, i loove the dead's studio albums up to go to heaven but they're just too flat and grassy sounding for my stoned brain

The relationship of the Dead's drummers to, say, Merle Haggard's drummer (especially on the mid-60s stuff) or Ronnie Tutt is tenuous at best. Focus is what's missing from Bill & Mickey.

sara, i should have clarified that i was referring to the drumming specifically on american beauty/workingman's dead, which is non-relevant (not in a bad way, just as a contrast to say don ellis' drummers). i've never been really impressed with the dead's drumming in general, for me it's all about the songs + jerry's guitar

They have made lots of pretty much OK albums I would say. I am sure no fanatical Deadhead, but they have made their share of great music, both the freaked out stuff on "Anthem Of The Sun" and the more straightforward country-pop of "American Beauty" and "Workingman's Dead". But most of all, "Aoxomoxoa", which was a little of both, mixed together in a brilliant way.

"i duno those early 70s shows after mickey left and bill holds the shit down ... he sounds pretty amazing on those."

For the win.

And I recommend anybody ragging on the rythm section to listen to "The Eleven" from Live/Dead. It will be an eye opener.

man kate is such a bitch up thread

No shit, if you don't like them don't listen to them

I can sort of see flat-out rejecting the endless live Dead noodle shit &/or deadhead hippy culture in general, but the first few studio albums gots a bunch of solid tunes. Catchy singalong shit, well suited to summertime inactivity periods. If you look at the Dead as a singles band who didn't have many hits, there really isn't much to hate.

Or even the first couple sides of Europe '72. Lots of great songs on there, very little noodling even though live. The Pigpen stuff grates, however.

<i>Focus is what's missing from Bill & Mickey.</i>

IT'S THE GRATEFUL DEAD!

man if liking the dead is wrong i dont wanna be right

I can sort of see flat-out rejecting the endless live Dead noodle shit &/or deadhead hippy culture in general, but the first few studio albums gots a bunch of solid tunes. Catchy singalong shit, well suited to summertime inactivity periods. If you look at the Dead as a singles band who didn't have many hits, there really isn't much to hate.

It's funny, I actually a serious attempts to get into that area of their music, but Moby Grape had pretty much pre-empted it all for me. Except for "Box Of Rain." The use of that in Freaks & Geeks sold me on that song.

It's too bad that you don't see value in their other songs, too. They've got a lot of great tunes. Maybe try Jerry's first solo album, Garcia, the one with the naked breast in the montage on the cover.

I think I misused the word "montage" in that sentence.

The versions of "The Eleven" from the Fillmore shows that wound up on Live/Dead (which were later collected on the box) are completely amazing. I guess that is in 11/4 time, right? It makes me so happy when I hear it, and agreed that the rhythm in general is out of this world on that track. However - I still wind up paying more attention to Jerry's guitar for some reason, even there. Not saying the playing is at fault, it's just where my ear gravitates w/ the Dead.

My ear gravitates there too.On that whole album his guitar sounds almost like a trumpet. What a master of tone and feel.

"The Eleven" has a definite Allman Bros. feel, and I don't even know if the Allmans were around by that point.

Chaki I will try to re-up when I get home

man if liking the dead is wrong i dont wanna be right

totally. i don't even try to convince the folks who don't like 'em. As Jerry said: the Dead are like black liquorice -- some love it, some hate it.

Sara Sara Sara - have you heard a version of "The Eleven" from 1969? Huge amounts of energy there.

It's funny, Kreutzmann always looked SO DAMN BORED, but I love his drumming during the '72-'74 period w/ Hart gone. He and Godchaux had way more room to work with, and I think that's what makes those years the best. The '80s/'90s rhythm section w/ Kreutzmann & Hart could def. sound sluggish and plodding at times though. The flipside is that they sounded STRONG, too, but they never sounded as lively as they did in the '60s/early '70s.

I wish the SBDs were still up at archive.org.

I got the Cornell '77, the version a buddy downloaded for me sounds like it was recorded last night. A+ performance and songlist, the Scarlet/Fire is amazing.

My feeling on the Dead is that Jerry Garcia was extremely talented and it's too bad his band sucked.

Thanks for sharing that. Much appreciated.

My feeling on the Dead is that Jerry Garcia was extremely talented and it's too bad his band sucked.

-- dally

:D

"Leave 'the bombs' to Phil"

I had something similar when I tried to get a friend into the Velvet Underground.

"yeah, Lou Reed is OK, but the rest are pretentious wankers"

Well the opposite is true in the case of the VU.

Re: Phil...personally, I just really do not like his style of playing 'around' the song rather than giving it a good foundation--he noodles around in a very self-indulgent manner, as if he's just listening to himself rather than the song. He thinks he's playing a counterpart, but it's really just out of tune. Check out all the bum notes in the otherwise beautiful studio version of Brokedown Palace for a classic example of a song ruined by Phil. And let's not even talk about the vocals. Bob Weir is an awful, awful singer. And Phil, somehow, managers to be even worse on that score. Garcia's voice had character. And also: how does a band have two drummers and yet to driving backbeat?

Which is why I'd rather listen to the JGB any time over the Dead. No Weir, no Lesh.

to=no driving backbeat