The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (3246 of them)

this needs to posted again:

so one thing people have been arguing lately is that civic engagement in america is quite low compared to countries where gun violence / homicide rates are much lower (you could do a similar comparison across neighborhoods in america). what constitutes civic engagment would be things like involvement in church, home ownership, higher education, employment, membership in civic groups, etc etc ... i have a strong intuitive feeling that these things are even stronger dis-incentives to gun violence than draconian gun laws or a well-armed populace.

-- moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:38 AM (7 hours ago)

Manalishi: ??

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, that's it in a nutshell. once a handgun comes out, whether wielded by "good guy" or "bad guy", something very big has failed.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I really shouldn't even get involved in this, but oh well.

First of all, a whole bunch of people seem to be conflating two different arguments here (well, probably more like seven, but two stick out.)

1. Ownership of firearms
2. Conceal and Carry laws

These are very distinct, separate issues, and using a sucessful argument against one to imply an argument against the other is simply sloppy or misleading logic.

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:03 (seventeen years ago) link

I was a little hard on kenan (sorry, dude), but he quickly reverted to "gun owners are just plain BANANANANAS lol!" and ad hominem attacks and didn't seem particularly interested in actually engaging the issue. Smug because he'd already made up his mind, and preening because most of his posts seemed like excuses to make quips and let everyone know how REALLY AGAINST guns he was. Not very constructive. But whatever, I was exhausted, had been at the bedside of a woman coughing up blood all night (non-gun-related assault), and was totally wasted off a beer and a half.

That being said: what is it that's confusing about my stance, jaymc?

brtrps JJ, yes.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

lol life-long liberal urbanites

As someone who's never even touched a gun, and so the vast majority of my real-life experience with them is reading the news when people get murdered, I admit that it's very hard for me to expand my perspective on this issue.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Your stance in and of itself isn't confusing, it's the way I felt when I read it that was confusing, because I consider you a bro and meanwhile you were giving props to Manalishi.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

dammit JJ i wanted to stick to simple, obvious declarations that make me feel good about myself

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

http://imagesource.allposters.com/images/pic/adc/10103223A~Charles-Bronson-Death-Wish-Posters.jpg

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, I have a point to bring up that probably came up upthread, but who gives a fuck about the Constitution?

Anyone in America with an ounce of sense, considering it is the foundational document of law for the country...? I think this stance is just as batshit insane as Roger's borderline "I CUM ON GUNS" shenanigans.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I care about the Constitution, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect document.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:10 (seventeen years ago) link

To my knowledge, there's only one person I've met who owns a gun, and that's my redneck uncle who lives in Peoria and is very much a John-Deere-hat-and-overalls-wearing fetishist who shoots deer in his backyard.

More people own guns than you think, dude. I mean, I'd own a rifle if I could afford one right now, but that's just because I wanted to eat delicious elk meat this winter.

xps the lack of exposure to guns really colors the issue, yeah. I grew up with them, so I'm just sort of "meh, it's a gun" when I see one. As far as giving props to Manalishi: dude is winding everyone up, as far as I can tell. True, I think the "more guns, less crime" argument is batshit, but I think a lot of what people say here is batshit and I like them anyway. The many colors of the rainbow, blah blah blah. Unlike some (not you, necessarily), I don't see issues like this in black and white; disagreeing with someone over gun control is like disagreeing with someone over most other gov't policies. It's not a moral issue for me, it's a policy issue.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:12 (seventeen years ago) link

What's wrong with making a constitution 2.0 (other than the fact that nobody would ever agree on one) that's set in present time? or wait, if the agreement thing the reason? fetishize a certain document so that nobody can argue its validity, and just try your damnedest to follow everything on it? i really don't understand, but my country didn't have a charter til 1982. and i think they still change it sometimes. xp

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:13 (seventeen years ago) link

so dude who killed all these people bought the guns legally, right?

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:13 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.texasfrightmareweekend.com/images/savini.jpg

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:14 (seventeen years ago) link

deej: yes, I think so.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Poor elk. ;_;

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:16 (seventeen years ago) link

I think given the lunatic infighting over all sorts of social issues these days, constitution 2.0 would be way more fucked up than constitution 1.0.

Plus, good luck getting through the hot-button issues (gun control, or, say, abortion) within our lifetime.

xpost

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:16 (seventeen years ago) link

What's most wrongheaded is the assertion that carrying a gun somehow makes you LESS likely to be shot by an evil criminal. If I were an evil criminal and someone pulled a gun on me in self-defence I'd be more likely to shoot them to save my own skin and less likely to think twice about it.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Apparently the serial #s had been filed off the guns. Just sayin'.

xp yeah but John, we're not getting through those things with CON1.0.

xp again augh so many xposts

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I find Evan's stance confusing. To my knowledge, there's only one person I've met who owns a gun, and that's my redneck uncle who lives in Peoria and is very much a John-Deere-hat-and-overalls-wearing fetishist who shoots deer in his backyard. I don't really see why anyone needs to have them. I understand that people always have.

This level of generalization surprises me, jaymc. I've grown up around them. My dad, a hunter, likes them for their own sake, like some people collect stamps and others buy music. He owns a concealed-weaposn permit. I've never once thought of owning one, though.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

OK SRSLY IT'S NOT HARD TO FILE A SERIAL NUMBER OFF A GUN, MOST GUNS WITH THE SERIAL NUMBERS FILED OFF WERE PURCHASED LEGALLY AT SOME POINT AND THE NUMBER WAS REMOVED AFTER THAT POINT--LITTLE KNOWN FACT?

sorry for the caps but seriously??

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Plus, good luck getting through the hot-button issues (gun control, or, say, abortion) within our lifetime.

Within our lifetime, the issue will surely alter significantly to heat-ray control.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Also: I'd be curious to knwo the gun fatality statistics for those who've grown up around them. From an early age I knew guns were loud and hot to the touch, therefore STAY AWAY.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (seventeen years ago) link

I care about the Constitution, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect document.

Read upthread where I compared the 2nd Amendment to Deuteronomy about a bazillion posts before Will did. Caring about the Constitution does not imply that the carer thinks it is a perfect document.

What's wrong with making a constitution 2.0 (other than the fact that nobody would ever agree on one) that's set in present time? or wait, if the agreement thing the reason? fetishize a certain document so that nobody can argue its validity, and just try your damnedest to follow everything on it? i really don't understand, but my country didn't have a charter til 1982. and i think they still change it sometimes. xp

It is virtually impossible to change the Constitution in this day and age, given the overwhelming majority who need to ratify any edits made to it. Also, if you read upthread, you will see that I'm not fetishizing it. My point is that not caring about the document that defines the way law works in your country is really fucking stupid regardless of how you feel about the laws described within that document.

xpost: Ally I'm trying to ignore that.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (seventeen years ago) link

I think you're probably right, Matt. Crucial to the concealed carry argument (which I've heard LOTS of times (hi dad!)), is the fact that a CCW owner will actually know how to use their weapon--correct grip, stance, will have practiced with it at the range, etc., while your average thug with a .38 is just sort of hoping that having the gun will be enough to scare someone.

Like I said on the VT thread (which came off all wrong, sorry): shooting handguns is hard!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:20 (seventeen years ago) link

word up schef, but if COULD also mean it was purched illegally. Who knows? It is kind of a moot point now, but yeah. Why would he buy it legally, then file it down?

xp Sorry Dan if it seemed like I was implying YOU were fetishizing it, I most certainly do not think you are. But to say nobody does would be wrong, no?

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:21 (seventeen years ago) link

Many people back home ask me about America and guns. Some of them even think that there is a gun in every American household and that there are multiple gun murders every day in every American city. There are many things I do not understand about the gun debate, but I have twice been in a situation where an older male relative (one my cousin, one my father in law) has pulled a revolver from his wife's underwear drawer in order to show me it and how freedom works blahblahblah. On neither occasion did I request or want to see a gun. Nonethless, I think this says something about US gun culture, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is.

― admrl, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:21 (seventeen years ago) link

and, btw, simply having a gun really is enough to scare someone, and it ought to be. my friend had a gun shoved in his face while riding his bike (ie - moving) and it was seriously disturbing, especially since there was (what looked to me) a 16 yr old on the other end of it.

bet you he didn't get that at the gun shop, though.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

some people be needing a civics class, among other things? seriously, constitution 2.0? nigh impossible simply in practical terms, leaving aside John Justen's point about how scary such a document would likely be.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry Dan if it seemed like I was implying YOU were fetishizing it, I most certainly do not think you are. But to say nobody does would be wrong, no?

Considering that the person on this thread who is fetishizing the Constitution is the one I described as having an "I CUM ON GUNS" stance... I'd say no one ever said no one fetishized the Constitution.

(xpost: I give leeway on the Constitution 2.0 thing because the person suggesting it isn't an American and mostly likely doesn't know how impossible it would be to generate a document like that without another revolution.)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link

my guess is that if the serial number were filed down, he probably got it illegally? like, if he's going to on a murderous rampage, why would he care about covering his tracks back to where he go the gun?

serial numbers are filed in order to allow guns to traffic; the end user probably doesn't give a shit.

brtrps constitution 2.0 is the worst idea on the planet. hi dere marriage amendment!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:24 (seventeen years ago) link

What level of generalization, Alfred? "I don't know anyone who has a gun" is a statement of fact.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:25 (seventeen years ago) link

however: it IS supposed to be a living document, and we would do well to remember that.

xp "why would I etc." :D

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:25 (seventeen years ago) link

i still think just because someone is trained enough to have a concealed weapon license does not mean they will do any less (or any more) damage because of it.

i think it is just as likely they will cause more damage (firefight breaking out).

education might go some way, but not really.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Marriage amendment, abortion amendment, media violence amendment, welfare amendment... what other batshit fringe positions can we bake into this hypothetical clusterfuck?

(xpost: I hope it's obvious that I agree that the Constitution should be a living document, RW!)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link

however: it IS supposed to be a living document, and we would do well to remember that.

Yeah, all I was saying was that I took "who the fuck cares about the Constitution" not to be a call for anarchy but a challenge against those who cling to the 2nd Amendment without considering whether it's still practical and appropriate, as if its very presence in the Constitution legitimates it on anything other than a legal ground.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:29 (seventeen years ago) link

(fwiw, it should be obvious to everyone by now that i'm getting my news in fits and starts, and mostly from ilx. irresponsible, etc. so, yeah, i guess the guns WERE purchased legally and dude filed them down afterwards. )

xps (i know, dan! and jaymc: thing is, i can't help but think that rectifying the second amendment, beyond being impossible, would also result in a tit for tat sorta deal where all kinds of other crazy shit gets thrown in there too)

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (seventeen years ago) link

My dad, a hunter, likes them for their own sake, like some people collect stamps and others buy music. He owns a concealed-weaposn permit.

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear? Not really picking your dad or anything, and I know those two sentences are separate statements, but let's not try to fudge an antique-dealer's appreciation of gun-as-object with holding permits to pack heat!

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Jaymc 8080808080. That's exactly what I was saying. I'm just a terrible communicator. Fuck an anarchy. The only good thing about anarchy was that hilarious cookbook I downloaded in 1996 and tried to hide on my parent's IBM for so long. xxp

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:32 (seventeen years ago) link

oh hey i still have that on my computer!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I wish I did, hahaha. Tennis balls full of matchheads.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link

YSI?

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link

wait, no, don't have it anymore. i do have the MIT lockpicking book, though

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link

dude, the tennis ball full of matchheads was seriously tedious.

a light bulb went on in my head about the plot for Wimbledon II just now.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:38 (seventeen years ago) link

YOU ARE A BIG FUCKING TEASE, MR SO-CALLED "RIVER WOLF"

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear? Not really picking your dad or anything, and I know those two sentences are separate statements, but let's not try to fudge an antique-dealer's appreciation of gun-as-object with holding permits to pack heat!

you know, there ARE places where you cannot actually own a gun, even as-object, without owning such permits. i mean, i know it's kind of beneath a few of you to actually learn about this shit before you open your mouths but it's not THAT hard. i don't personally own a gun and wouldn't want to after my own charming experience of being kidnapped and held for an interminable amount of time at gunpoint and then being shot at--have some of you even SEEN a gun in person, btw?--but it's not that hard for me to learn this stuff, and not make a horse's ass out of myself when trying to argue gun control ideas with my extremely libertarian father, so i'd like for the rest of you to do so as well, in the future.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Aw, I was enjoying the waves of unwarranted smugness coming in a direction other than mine!

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha just like the many philatelists and rock geeks who walk around with stamps and CDs tucked in their underwear?

I didn't think I would actually have to spell this out, but, you know, my dad likes guns because he finds them beautiful pieces of machinery, not cuz he can kill someone with'em.

What level of generalization, Alfred? "I don't know anyone who has a gun" is a statement of fact.

Thte person you described is a grotesque stereotype. It's like saying, "The only homo I know wears pink tanktops, marches in gay-pride parades, lisps, and loves ABBA" (which, actually, describes lots of Miami homos, except the marching part; it's too hot).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:44 (seventeen years ago) link

The seeing a gun statement is kinda ridiculous. Sure, tell people to know what they're talking about. But this whole "have you SEEN a gun" thing is just silly. Like seeing it makes a difference.

And yes, I've "seen" lots of guns. My dad was military and my friend's mom had a shotgun to scare off bears because she used to live in BC (which I always thought was hilarious)

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:45 (seventeen years ago) link

If the Constitution were a living document, Charlton Heston have shot the fuck out of it years ago.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 3146 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.