To me, Magnolia does belong. It's wildly ambitious, completely nuts, sometimes brilliant, sometimes stupefying, etc. Disagree with regards to Heaven's Gate, too--I mean, he clearly doesn't like the film, and that's fine, but I think a lot of people would argue it practically defines what he's talking about.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:41 (thirteen years ago) link
No, it doesn't. This is about movies that compare to Wagner, not Pluto Nash.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:42 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't really think cleopatra is "feverish" tbh, closer to the description of heaven's gate than not
― (name) in (some place i'm not from) (buzza), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:42 (thirteen years ago) link
(In reference to Magnolia, I mean, not Heaven's Gate, which he does include, fleetingly.)
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:43 (thirteen years ago) link
That's a good line about Magnolia, but you're essentially saying "Here are the criteria, and this film doesn't belong because...I don't like it." It does fit the criteria.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:45 (thirteen years ago) link
Read the book and then we'll discuss why it doesn't belong.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:46 (thirteen years ago) link
Okay--you stay where you are, and I'll be back in three days...Not that I know anything about Wagner, but having seen Duel in the Sun, I'm guessing it's closer to Ed Wood.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:48 (thirteen years ago) link
Um, not really. Again, this isn't even an issue of quality or effectiveness on normal movie terms. This is a stricter sort of taxonomy I'm talking about here.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:54 (thirteen years ago) link
You know, if I hadn't seen Duel in the Sun, I might actually fall under the spell of "stricter sort of taxonomy"...
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Can we just say we disagree and leave it at that?
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 05:59 (thirteen years ago) link
No.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link
Okay, let's fight. I think the category's great. But I don't feel any need to take his picks as gospel. (And no--oh no!--I haven't read the book.) "This is all about movies that are drunk on themselves." That's Heaven's Gate, and that's Magnolia--totally, and completely.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:07 (thirteen years ago) link
I appreciate you abstaining from voting, if you're really going to compare PTA's experience making Magnolia to Lang and Von Stroheim making Metropolis and Greed.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:09 (thirteen years ago) link
Well, now you're bringing in something new altogether. Are we talking about the finished film, or what went into the making of that film? If I look back at the original post, there's really no indication that process had anything to do with it, unless I missed something.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:11 (thirteen years ago) link
It's sort of right there in these movies' gestalt. I didn't think I really had to explain that because, especially in cases like Apocalypse Now and Fitzcarraldo, it's sorta self-evident. Extravagance/exertion as both journey and destination. (So, yes, you can definitely argue that Heaven's Gate at least merits discussion, and is part of it in Klawans' book, even if he decides that it's a different sort of money-sucking beast.)
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Okay--I was asleep at the switch and missed the gestalt. (For dummies like me, explanations are helpful.) Seems to me the category is now widened to any number of infamous follies from Peckinpah, Gilliam, Spielberg, etc.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:17 (thirteen years ago) link
Please, don't.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Or at least not until you have read the book.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:20 (thirteen years ago) link
Homework thus assigned, I bid you good night.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:20 (thirteen years ago) link
Happy reading.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 06:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Based on the criteria outlined above, shouldn't Waterworld be on the list? (High-on-his-own-ego actor/producer/director with a megalomaniac vision, went way over its budget, etc.)
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 10:55 (thirteen years ago) link
Do not--I repeat, do not--question the list. The list is good. The list abides.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:03 (thirteen years ago) link
I'd have thought a "magnif off-the-rails" movie would be the original "Casino Royale"
A James Bond film, rights to which were up for grabs, obtained and actioned. Should have been an easy. but: Hey, let's get Orson Welles and Peter Sellers. That'll make it easy to make! And so on, etc...
xpost not questioning the list, just adding another.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Good luck to the both of you; may peace be with you as you embark on this difficult journey.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:07 (thirteen years ago) link
Kolberg, easily. They pulled a bunch, i think several thousand soldiers off the eastern front - in 1945! - to star as extras in it. No folly on the list can come close to that. I don't think Goebbels actually directed it though?
― Pashmina, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:14 (thirteen years ago) link
That said, maybe it made the 39-45 war shorter by a few days, who knows?
Les Amants du Pont-Neuf - Classic or Dud?
― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:50 (thirteen years ago) link
Thanks for the list btw - I have a feeling some of these are available on Mubi!
― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:51 (thirteen years ago) link
Apparently reading this book makes you act like a real dickweed
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Unless I missed that Eric H is the kind of guy who trumpets a 'strict taxonomy' for 'movies that are drunk on themselves' before this
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:19 (thirteen years ago) link
apparently not reading this book and finding the idea of reading a book ludicrous makes you awesome and insightful. very 2010.
― balls, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:22 (thirteen years ago) link
oh wtf, dude
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:24 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm talking about eric h giving another ilxor shit for not understanding his criteria for a pretty nebulous concept, not for being literate
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:25 (thirteen years ago) link
For what it's worth; last night, I suggested a couple of films that I thought could go on this list. I'm not at all opposed to the idea of reading the book. Reading is good--I do it all the time. But I didn't think that reading the book would be a precondition of suggesting ammendments to the list; the concept for the list seemed fairly clear to me, although apparently I did slightly misunderstand.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:26 (thirteen years ago) link
does Gregory Pecks sport a 'stache in Duel in the Sun? Man, I've wanted to rent for years but I've burned so many times by Peck and his facial hair.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:26 (thirteen years ago) link
I always expect the movie will be terrific camp and it's usually, er, not.
*Peck
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:27 (thirteen years ago) link
no need to understand or familiarize yrself w/ an idea to have as valid a take on it as anyone else right?
― balls, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:27 (thirteen years ago) link
no need to explain your criteria coherently before starting an ilx thread on the subject and bitching out those who dare to contribute, right?
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:28 (thirteen years ago) link
defending ignorance as more valid than expertise is one daring contribution
― balls, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:29 (thirteen years ago) link
defending ignorance as more valid than expertise
are you for real?
― da croupier, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:31 (thirteen years ago) link
Well...(sighs)...I thought I did understand the idea; that's why I commented in the first place.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:31 (thirteen years ago) link
there is almost no such thing as terrific camp.
(victimized by too many smug NYC theater chortlers)
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:32 (thirteen years ago) link
Greatest "ILE Thread Folly" of All.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:32 (thirteen years ago) link
balls you are awful at this
― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:32 (thirteen years ago) link
Luckily I don't live in NYC and believe in "almost."
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:33 (thirteen years ago) link
The weird thing is, I'm arguing with Eric H and balls, and I generally find both of you to be very reasonable on here.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:33 (thirteen years ago) link
its been a while since i read the book, but i *think this is a poll of the movies the book investigates, so i don't really see the problem with eric h saying "i didn't include other movies cos they aren't in the book, so read the book", because that would be another poll.
― Babylon and zing (stevie), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:34 (thirteen years ago) link
didnt realize lust in the dust was such an extravagant production, need to see that i guess - voted for fitzcarraldo since the documentary's so memorable
feel like one of demille's silent epics should be on here but maybe i don't understand the criteria too
― Princess TamTam, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:35 (thirteen years ago) link
If he'd said that way--and said it politely--I would have understood.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:36 (thirteen years ago) link
IIRC DeMille's silent epics were pretty str8forward & lacking in any kind of folly as far as shooting them went, the only exception being putting Gloria Swanson in a cage with a live lion for one of them, "Male and Female" I think. Michael Curtiz' "Noah's Ark" might be a silent-era pick, if non-book picks are allowable - the biblical scenes are ridiculously OTT and they killed several extras making the flood scenes.
― Pashmina, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 12:42 (thirteen years ago) link
I was thinking of starting a similar poll, but limited to American films from approximately At Long Last Love to One from the Heart--seems like every big American director of that period had an oversized disaster (sometimes more than one). I want to check first, though (not sure what search term to use): has this been done already?
Don't think so, but that would be a good one too. I like a lot of those movies.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:13 (thirteen years ago) link
LOVE One From The Heart, and would actually like to revisit At Long Last Love. It's been (probably justifiably) OOP for years. Clemenza, please do poll.
I have only seen 3 of the films in the OP, and haven't read the book, so won't vote, but Fitzcarraldo has some imagery that has stuck with me since 1982. I've never seen the making-of doc Burden Of Dreams; need to.
― The animal magnetism of Tim Pawlenty (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
Great, I'll set it up tonight--it's always been a group of films that fascinated me. No reading list, suggestions and omissions encouraged. (Sorry, Eric H., couldn't resist.)
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Please include Song of Norway if you intended for us to vote for the worst.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:46 (thirteen years ago) link
Hahah. THAT film.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:47 (thirteen years ago) link
Good Lord yes, was dragged to that as a school field trip. Others off the top of my head: Waterworld (if you're going that late), Even Cowgirls Get The Blues, 1941.
― The animal magnetism of Tim Pawlenty (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:47 (thirteen years ago) link
Just realized there's only 2 years separating Waterworld and Cowgirls. Sorry to derail this thread, will wait for other one.
― The animal magnetism of Tim Pawlenty (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link
(Sorry, Eric H., couldn't resist.)
No worries. I guess I torpedoed this one without even realizing it.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link
My own window of interest is the '70s. Waterworld and Cowgirls[i] certainly belong on a folly poll somewhere, but I know more about the '75-'82 debacles--all the [i]Easy Rider/Raging Bull directors meeting their Waterloos. Maybe someone who knows more about the late-'80s could set up a second poll?
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Try again (italics are my own Waterloo):
My own window of interest is the '70s. Waterworld and Cowgirls certainly belong on a folly poll somewhere, but I know more about the '75-'82 debacles--all the Easy Rider/Raging Bull directors meeting their Waterloos. Maybe someone who knows more about the late-'80s could set up a second poll?
― clemenza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
i think lola montes is one of my all-time "wished i liked it better" movies
Seconded.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Good Lord yes, was dragged to that as a school field trip.
You saw Song of Norway in a theater?!? I'm 1% jealous, 99% ready to help you with grief counseling.
― Kevin John Bozelka, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:18 (thirteen years ago) link
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, December 8, 2010 3:15 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
technically, you thirded me, but who's counting
― shirley summistake (s1ocki), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Lola Montes was one of those movies where I should love it but I ended up being indifferent.
― THX THO... (Nicole), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link
I like Lola Montes just fine.
Wow @ "The Conqueror"...I never heard that story. Crazy...
Inspired the Mekons song "The Flame That Killed John Wayne."
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link
I had heard the Conqueror stories, had never seen any clips. That looks wretched.
But not as wretched as Song Of Norway!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKHKQ1p4HZk&feature=related
― The animal magnetism of Tim Pawlenty (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
I do think Cleopatra is sort of the odd one out among these choices in that it really does seem to be a pretty irredeemable misfire, as opposed to glorious. (Never managed to get through it, myself.)
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link
that's probably because it's an huge epic made by a guy who was essentially a screenwriter.
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^
― buzza, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link
That would explain a couple things.
― benanas foster (Eric H.), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Watch it as Liz and Richard's first vacation films and it's a treat. (Legendary line from Mankiewicz during one of their love scenes: "Cut...CUT!...I feel like I'm intruding!")
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link
Also it's just weird to be watching and see all these familiar people in different contexts. "Oh hey, Carroll O'Connor."
I made it through it (pan-and-scan) on TV in the '70s. The 4:30 Movie on WABC would show it in a 90-minute slot, all week, in 4 or 5 parts.
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Uncut it's something like four hours -- allegedly the original cut was *six* hours. There's a couple of ridiculously rough edits where you can tell they chopped out something after Mankiewicz lost control of the cut.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link
Filmed in Super Panavision 70 by Davis Boulton and presented in single-camera Cinerama in some countries, it was a clear attempt to capitalise on the success of The Sound of Music but suffered from a weak script, poor editing (by the director's wife), unappealing animation and an ill-advised stunt sequence (directed by Yakima Canutt) which appeared to portray Grieg as an action hero.
yakima canutt? im fucking sold!
― Princess TamTam, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Sunday, 30 January 2011 00:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Monday, 31 January 2011 00:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Still think you cocked this one up, Clemenza.
― Gus Van Sant's Gerry Blank (Eric H.), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 04:02 (twelve years ago) link
My own window of interest is the '70s.
Posts so in character they didn't even need to be posted.
― Gus Van Sant's Gerry Blank (Eric H.), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 04:10 (twelve years ago) link
LOL this thread, memories
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Friday, 17 March 2023 12:35 (one year ago) link
No Ludwig (Visconti, 1973), no credibility.
I liked L'Inhumaine, but as a precursor of the more epic lol-80s music videos. (Which I suspect were made by film students who had been trained on whatever version of Metropolis was in circulation.)
Foolish Wives is almost restrained compared to The Merry Widow (1925) or The Wedding March (1928). I haven't seen Queen Kelly, but all accounts suggest it's in the same vein.
― Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Friday, 17 March 2023 13:04 (one year ago) link
Classic ILX right here.
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 March 2023 14:59 (one year ago) link
That's for sure!
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 17 March 2023 15:13 (one year ago) link
xp Clyde Fitch and this thread, thought you may not know it, were well before my time.
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Friday, 17 March 2023 15:13 (one year ago) link
What makes a man walk into a lion cage with nothing but a chair?
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 March 2023 15:21 (one year ago) link
clem, did you ever read Klawans?
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 March 2023 15:22 (one year ago) link
Helluva book!
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Friday, 17 March 2023 15:25 (one year ago) link
Don't know what the total death toll was for those who worked on Stalker compared to The Conqueror, mentioned above, but it's likely that the industrial location shooting near poisoned waterways was when Tarkovsky contracted cancer.
― Halfway there but for you, Friday, 17 March 2023 15:49 (one year ago) link
The only copy of this book is in a non-circulating reference library downtown, otherwise I'd like to read it.
One possible inclusion I thought of that I think fits the criteria as I now understand it is Hopper's Last Movie.
I actually like it a lot, but unlike all the other choices on the list, The Last Movie is barely coherent as a movie, thus losing a lot of potential grandeur in the eyes of most viewers.
― Halfway there but for you, Friday, 17 March 2023 16:00 (one year ago) link
This thread is the classic example of the insular, cock-tugging male critics worldview ILX is sometimes so terrible for.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Saturday, 18 March 2023 23:12 (one year ago) link
Eric: I remember this thread. Of the many arguments I've had on here, this'd be one where I think back and--without even scrolling back--regret being needlessly difficult. Sorry.
― clemenza, Saturday, 18 March 2023 23:42 (one year ago) link
I certainly didn’t do myself any favors either, obviously, and am fine (retroactively) haveing gotten called out on it
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Sunday, 19 March 2023 03:13 (one year ago) link
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Sunday, 19 March 2023 03:15 (one year ago) link
Hey, I was trying to be charitable :)
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Sunday, 19 March 2023 04:09 (one year ago) link