x-post The country is pretty irrational, isn't it? Unlike, say, Iran, whose wants, needs and desires can be frustrating but are pretty clear, and whose positions are pretty well understood, N. Korea is an enigma. Leave 'em alone? They don't like that. Give them what they want? They like that, as long as you realize they want more. Engage? They break off talks. Suggest talks? They require good faith actions (but don't expect any in return). I mean really, everything we do for N. Korea we essentially do just to keep some semblance of talks going. Meanwhile. N. Korea does whatever it wants. What's unclear about N. Korea is either a) it really thinks it's in danger of invasion or b) it's just cynically using that alleged threat as a pretense for aggressive bargaining. But you've got to figure N. Korea could get a lot more out of cooperation than it does from total obstinence, without losing a bit of autonomy. Again, look at Iran, hardly pushovers. There are any number of despotic regimes that do what they want, yet aren't quite so isolated. How exactly does N. Korea benefit from its behavior? That is, what can it get by behaving the way it does that it probably couldn't get by some other less antagonistic means?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:18 (thirteen years ago) link
just cause you dont know what theyre doing doesnt mean they dont know what theyre doing
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
what can it get by behaving the way it does that it probably couldn't get by some other less antagonistic means?
yeah this is the yardstick I'm measuring them by
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link
by that measure most if not all countries are insane
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't know about that
― in a style known as "Early Cleveland" (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
Most if not all countries don't let their people starve en masse to strengthen a bargaining position.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
My point is that N. Korea can still stay plenty inscrutable, unpredictable, mysterious, whatever, toning things down a few notches from where it stands now.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:31 (thirteen years ago) link
and my point is pretty much every country could stand to tone it down a notch or two, people be aggressive and are hard to reason w/if its working out for them
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
pretty sure this is all fallout from them not getting out of the group stage in south africa
― caek, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post But again, most countries do not allow their people to starve. Though I'm not sure who is worse on this front, Kim or Mugabe. At least North Koreans gets top-notch security out of the deal!
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I feel like Mugabe's as bad as it gets in pretty much every way but I'll cop to knowing a lot less about NK
― Megatherium americanum (Princess TamTam), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link
josh i really have no idea what you are arguing except that n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that, if thats all youre saying then yes i agree n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:14 (thirteen years ago) link
Most countries also have free public health care.
― Telephoneface (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:17 (thirteen years ago) link
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/kim-jong-il-smiling.jpg
health care? yeah ill give you some health care
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:25 (thirteen years ago) link
n korea still hilarious^
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:26 (thirteen years ago) link
I liked Hitchens' term about North Korea's government: a necrocracy.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 23:36 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post I wasn't making an argument. It's just that every time someone said "North Korea is crazy!" you'd say something like "well, lots of countries are crazy." "North Korea is aggressive!" "Well, lots of countries are aggressive." I was trying to demonstrate one way that North Korea is not like other countries, and how its behavior reflects the mindset of a nation that would willfully let its own people starve. That is to say, irrational to the extent that its extreme purported self-preservation has been perverted into a sow form of self-destruction. Not a lot of countries like that (save Zimbabwe, but Zimbabwe does not make military threats).
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:07 (thirteen years ago) link
(Ha, that should be "slow form of self-destruction." Though I imagine the lack of sows in N. Korea hasn't helped the food issue.)
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Part of studying history, and exercising the right judgment, I think, is recognizing when examples don't follow the predicted norms of behavior or patterns. North Korea is one.
― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link
josh i really have no idea what you are arguing except that n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that, if thats all youre saying then yes i agree n korea has let its people starve and most countries dont do that― ice cr?m, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:14 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark
― ice cr?m, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:14 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark
off the top of my head:
ussr chinanorth korea
idk if that sounds neocon, just saying
― rip whiney g weingarten 03/11 never forget (history mayne), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link
josh countries are different in lots of ways
― ice cr?m, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:10 (thirteen years ago) link
but otherwise it seems like any escalation between the two would result in a swift decimation of NK's forces
Srsly? In a North vs. South scenario ppl think these guys, who could (in fact probably have been) eat dirt to stay alive
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2009/03/13/1225699/420384-north-korean-soldiers.jpg
are going to beaten by these dudes, who look like they're out of a fruity playstation (PS1 at that) game
http://img.hani.co.kr/imgdb/resize/2006/0926/1159250331_03591928_20060926.JPG
― The Jolly Roget's Thesaurus (S-), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:32 (thirteen years ago) link
Shit, gbx, I'm pretty sure this will mean little to you, but we are all making decisions about how we regard NK, and those decisions do make a difference in a situation like this. Americans were predisposed to hate commies in 1963, and N. Vietnam was full of commies. We were predisposed to hate Saddam. We're now becoming more and more predisposed to hate on Muslims generally. NK is still in the nasty commies camp. Etc.
Like if the West weren't so predisposed to hatin' commies, we'd all be living in fuckin' Stalinist love harems by now. : )
― Vanpire Halend (kkvgz), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:38 (thirteen years ago) link
N. Korea is an enigma. Leave 'em alone? They don't like that. Give them what they want? They like that, as long as you realize they want more. Engage? They break off talks. Suggest talks? They require good faith actions (but don't expect any in return). I mean really, everything we do for N. Korea we essentially do just to keep some semblance of talks going. Meanwhile. N. Korea does whatever it wants.
If you replace 'N. Korea' with 'Apple' and 'we' with the name of any other company the entire passage still works.
― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:58 (thirteen years ago) link
man you really hate those dudes
― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 00:59 (thirteen years ago) link
fair enough too
― livin' next door to phallus (electricsound), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 01:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Are you suggesting we should invade Apple?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 03:34 (thirteen years ago) link
y
― livin' next door to phallus (electricsound), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 03:36 (thirteen years ago) link
If you guys really wanna feel good about this whole situation, take a few minutes to read the comments beneath the CNN article.
― "I am a fairly respected poster." (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 05:08 (thirteen years ago) link
NYT:
President Obama and South Korea’s president agreed to hold joint military exercises as they struggled to keep a North Korean provocation from escalating into war.
Hmm... interesting logic.
― Super Cub, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 08:23 (thirteen years ago) link
NYT follow-up article full of all sorts of Dr. Strangelove LOLs:
As diplomatic responses to the incident were being drafted in Washington, Seoul, Beijing and other capitals, the American and South Korean militaries announced Wednesday that an aircraft carrier strike group would lead a four-day exercise in the western sea beginning on Sunday. The strike group is led by the United States carrier George Washington.Mr. Breen called it “foolishness.”“The whole idea is just to give them the bird,” he said.
Mr. Breen called it “foolishness.”
“The whole idea is just to give them the bird,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/25/world/asia/25kim.html?_r=1
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 13:25 (thirteen years ago) link
can't believe shakey mo collier just nuked n korea
nukey mo collier
― tween-justin-bieber-riot-of-09-pandemonium-arrests-terror+tweeting (Edward III), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link
guys, this is going to be the funniest world war
― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 14:51 (thirteen years ago) link
oh my aching, irradiated sides
someone drag my knee back over here, I need to slap it
― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 14:52 (thirteen years ago) link
America's Funniest Police Actions
― Unfrozen Caveman Board-Lawyer (WmC), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link
Meanwhile, breaking news from the Central News Agency of the DPRK:
Pyongyang, November 23 (KCNA) -- General Secretary Kim Jong Il provided field guidance to the newly built Soy Sauce Shop at the Ryongsong Foodstuff Factory.After being briefed on the technical features of the newly built shop, he went round various places including the processes equipped with cutting-edge facilities for producing soy sauce, processed salt, powdered meat and ham to learn in detail about its construction and production there.It is a great success that the workers of the factory and soldier- builders have successfully built the modern shop as big as a food processing factory in a short span of time, he noted, expressing great satisfaction over the construction of a model shop which can represent the era of Songun.
After being briefed on the technical features of the newly built shop, he went round various places including the processes equipped with cutting-edge facilities for producing soy sauce, processed salt, powdered meat and ham to learn in detail about its construction and production there.
It is a great success that the workers of the factory and soldier- builders have successfully built the modern shop as big as a food processing factory in a short span of time, he noted, expressing great satisfaction over the construction of a model shop which can represent the era of Songun.
― James Mitchell, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 18:26 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.hockeydrunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/kim_jong_ok.jpg
― am0n, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link
we should call north korea's bluff and send kanye in as our new diplomatic envoy
you wanna act all crazy, we'll show you crazy
― tween-justin-bieber-riot-of-09-pandemonium-arrests-terror+tweeting (Edward III), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
― "smokin' hot" albeit in a "Nickelback on iPod" sort of way (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 19:24 (thirteen years ago) link
I can't find it now coz I is travelling for work but there's a brilliant photo blog of Kim Jong-il posing in warehouses with various food products.
― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 21:33 (thirteen years ago) link
(by 'posing' I mean 'standing awkwardly and detachedly clutching/surveying')
― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 21:34 (thirteen years ago) link
Palin stands with 'our North Korean allies'
― naus, Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:09 (thirteen years ago) link
PALIN/IL 2012
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:11 (thirteen years ago) link
KIM u racist
― ah dictabelt (electricsound), Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:22 (thirteen years ago) link
HA
― ice cr?m, Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:33 (thirteen years ago) link
oh my fucking god sarah palin
― pretty hat machine (crüt), Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:37 (thirteen years ago) link
"There was also a new version of the No-dong ballistic missile, with a tri-conic nosecone, on show." - http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/24/north.korea.capability/
If I die because of a no-dong missle ....
― svend, Thursday, 25 November 2010 05:41 (thirteen years ago) link
I guess Kim gets the Adam & Eve catalog as well…
― naus, Thursday, 25 November 2010 06:05 (thirteen years ago) link
(that was weak, i know)
― naus, Thursday, 25 November 2010 06:06 (thirteen years ago) link
It's a new type o' dong: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-13-2003/north-korea-s-taepo-dong
― James Mitchell, Thursday, 25 November 2010 06:29 (thirteen years ago) link