An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

js might have been bristling a bit at the ops continual characterization of ilxors as the sort of people who would sb people for being women or opposing rape culture, which infuriates me

Yeah, it reads like a multiple ad hom to me, I do understand a lot of KDT's frustration but tarring dozens of people with a pretty unpleasant brush is not a good look either.

basically i agree with aeroflot in that modding is a thankless job and that the system mostly works as it is currently implemented. but since i ~don't~ know whether or not flagging has been considered by stet/keith/et al, and since i'm pretty sure it would ~work better~, i think it's worthwhile to discus

this doesn't have to be a referendum on SBs, instead maybe think of non-technical reasons why flagging would be inferior to SBing (since from the sounds of things they're about equally time-consuming from a modding and implementation perspective)

that is: kate began this thread as a discussion of an alternative system, we don't have to keep hobbyhorsing (i learned a word today!) the usual beefs w/SBs.

Flagging wdn't cover the range of posts that people find SB-worthy at the moment.

xpost

I think I sort of made hobbyhorsing up

(04:59:02 PM) Jordan Sargent: thank you, wmc

i know i'm thread banned for a reason so this is the last thing i'll say on the subject -- i didn't make a rape joke and i didn't bring up the word "rape" out of thin air -- kate directly implied in her post that she has been sb'd for being "against rape culture", which is what i was reacting against in the one post of mine that even included the word "rape"

i just don't want to carry the unperson scarlet letter of being a rape joker, that's all

(04:59:04 PM) Jordan Sargent: just post that

maybe it was already explained but can someone tell me why flagging won't be a ridiculous clusterfuck

ITT we all yell @ J0rdan and force BIG HOOS aka the steendriver to intermediary until he revolts against his cruel rider

maybe it was already explained but can someone tell me why flagging won't be a ridiculous clusterfuck

― questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:02 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark

i have already done this several times

like for real dude do yr homework

Ok Kate as a vocal opponent of sb, please explain to me why you have given out over 30 of them, because that seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

Only 30? Shit, I thought I had given out way more than that. Some must have expired. After one of my site bans, I started systematically giving them out completely randomly to everyone I could see. I went through a period of being really, really angry at the arbitrary nature of SB's - especially that supplicant "OMG, forgive me great mod for I have sinned, tell me how many SB's I have and I will say a hail mod" thread where it was revealed how the number of SB's people have accumulated has *nothing* to do with what they post. I did this with the misguided idea of proving that they were complete BS, since no one wanted to listen to any rational discussion of them. I gave them out indiscriminately, and at random in the hopes that someone on the "forgive me, father" thread might actually say "hang on, this isn't right!" and realise what a stupid popularity contest it was and show up how ridiculous and infantilising the whole thread was.

After that, I realised they functioned as a way of exercising/exorcising one's rage - rather than responding to a yapping tool, just to hit SB. This was what made me think of the "flag post" idea - because I thought that would actually be a better reaction. I don't want this person permanently removed from the site, I want them to, for example, stop making the rape jokes that I find really triggering. A flag saying "this post is unacceptable" would be a lot more functional in terms of *dealing* with stuff like that.

I don't want to have a clusterfuck over OMG feminists what the fuck is wrong with them. I don't want to have to explain, yet again, how "being triggered" is not the same as "getting offended." I just want that damn rape joke removed and the guy told why it's not cool to make rape jokes RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT. Not have him come back 30 days later, even more bitter and angry at those damn OMG feminists getting him banned and making more rape jokes than ever before that I have to deal with, sitting in my office and crying at my desk.

So, you know, take something that isn't working, and change it into something that might work better. Because, clearly getting angry didn't work. I wanted to think of a more constructive way of dealing with the problem.

i have already done this several times

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:03 PM (40 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i think you explained how it puts power back in the hands of the mods which always goes well.

can't wait for the first "why are mods not taking action on the posts i flagged" imp thread

Rape jokes surely belong in the category of posts that mods shd take action on. There's a broad category of posts that people find aggravating - repetitive low-level rudeness or aggro-ness seems like a relatively uncontroversial example - that couldn't be dealt with by post flagging because mods wd have be looking at those flags all day. I don't say SB is a perfect system for dealing with that kind of annoyance but I wd argue it's more effective than a flag could be.

Not have him come back 30 days later, even more bitter and angry at those damn OMG feminists getting him banned and making more rape jokes than ever before that I have to deal with, sitting in my office and crying at my desk.

I'm with you on more of what you say than a lot of people but this is a bullshit mischaracterization of a guy who via an intermediary has already said "my bad" about this. If you are demanding perfection from human beings, then you will have to look a lot further afield than ILX. except for my posts obv, I am awesome

Just want to point out to everyone that KDT didn't say people were SBing her for being a woman. She said that under the SB system she DIDN'T KNOW whether people were SBing her for valid reasons or because they dislike her personally or because they're inherently misogynistic fucktards who like rape jokes.

I think the flagging system is a really good idea.

my understanding of how it works now:
users have a register of SBs. when they hit 51, the mods are alerted, and they review the person's catalogue of SB'd posts, and decide how to proceed. most ppl get banned in some way, at least. this ~can~ be clusterfucky because that 51st SB might have been a LOL, but it was enough to push them into the red. so, person gets banned, ppl get confused as to why that person is banned, clusterfucks follow.

flagging:
each post has a register of flags. when it hits, oh, i dunno, 20, the mods are alerted, and can see the post, in context, and decide what to do. if its innocuous (doesn't violate the unstated community standards), they can ignore it. if its out of line, but not egregious, they can yellow card/delete the post/tempban, w/e. if it's beyond the pale, then it will have likely generated a clusterfuck all on its own, anyway.

NB - this assumes that flagged posts wouldn't be publicly flagged, the only people that know whether or not something is flagged are the mods and the ppl that did the flaggin.

xps

yeah i think you explained how it puts power back in the hands of the mods which always goes well.

― questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:05 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

can't wait for the first "why are mods not taking action on the posts i flagged" imp thread

― questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:06 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

why are you being obtuse

I repeat: I DO NOT KNOW what I was SB'd for. If that makes me clueless, I'm clueless. Neither SB I've had came in the middle of a clusterfuck - in fact, one came while I was asleep. It could be for thinking Slowdive is worse than Hitler. I have no idea. I do know I have a reputation as "OMG, that girl that talks about feminism and rape culture all the time." I get a lot of shit for talking about gender issues.

Is it TOTALLY inconceivable, in the absence of other information, to think that perhaps I am getting SB's for that thing that I get huge of amounts of shit for? Like, is that *so* insultingly off the wall and insane?

Just want to point out to everyone that KDT didn't say people were SBing her for being a woman. She said that under the SB system she DIDN'T KNOW whether people were SBing her for valid reasons or because they dislike her personally or because they're inherently misogynistic fucktards who like rape jokes.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

P.S. to Jordan, hey, you know what? Making rape jokes is really really REALLY a GREAT way of proving what a non-misogynist you are, and how you totally don't hate me for being a feminist. I mean, seriously. That's up there with making N-word jokes to prove how *past* racism you are.

Anyway, GBX totally has down the spirit of what I was getting at.

yeah but again

code it yourself if that's what you want

you're smart enough & you're an arrogant asshole if you think somehow the mods have more time on their hands than you

do it or stfu imo

(that's not to K8 specifically but to everybody coming w/ideas they're not willing to implement/craft)

tbqfh i'm undecided on whether or not it's a "better system"

but one thing it will certainly not do is reduce clusterfucks

The unstated community standards have 3 or 4 very clearly agreed rules and a whole bunch of hotly disputed ones representing individuals' opinions I think.

yeah but again

code it yourself if that's what you want

you're smart enough & you're an arrogant asshole if you think somehow the mods have more time on their hands than you

do it or stfu imo

Actually, I did intend to also agree with people who've said 'might be a good idea, but it'd take work to code' - but now you're just being antagonistic for no reason. Also, I don't get why it's a bad idea to discuss it before attempting to code it.

but one thing it will certainly not do is reduce clusterfucks

it might not, but knowing is always better than guessing

I have to go out and do errands for a while

you're smart enough & you're an arrogant asshole if you think somehow the mods have more time on their hands than you

do it or stfu imo

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:12 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark

cool yr jets bro, jesus, i know full well that the mods do not have the time to do this. as i've said above, this thread isn't about trashing/whining the SB system, but rather elucidating an alternative that ~may not have been considered~ and might be appealing to the people that actually do all the work around here.

ie - stet et al

i believe that is what they call moving the goalposts

P.S. to Jordan, hey, you know what? Making rape jokes is really really REALLY a GREAT way of proving what a non-misogynist you are, and how you totally don't hate me for being a feminist. I mean, seriously. That's up there with making N-word jokes to prove how *past* racism you are.

See if I wasn't sure of the explosion it would cause I would happily threadban you for this willful and abusive accusation

also, i'm actually interested in people laying out specifically how clusterfucks would be BOUND to happen with a flagging system. i mean yeah obv we love a good cf around here, but i honestly think this system has the potential to preempt those that come up around people getting banned (THREAD OF MISSING ______), while allowing ppl to go bonkers over bottle openers all the live long day

Actually, I did intend to also agree with people who've said 'might be a good idea, but it'd take work to code' - but now you're just being antagonistic for no reason. Also, I don't get why it's a bad idea to discuss it before attempting to code it.

because telling other people who aren't paid for their work "code this" is a dick move in my opinion! they do what they do because they're members of the community who either 1) incidentally have skills that can help the community function more smoothly, or 2) have acquired such skills specifically to help said community. and in either case: people demanding actual labor from people who are volunteering their time & effort is a fucking bullshit look imo. if you are that aggravated, get a couple of programming manuals off Alibris @ 5.00 apiece and use the brain u obv have for two weeks and do something about it instead of demanding that unpaid volunteers satisfy yr own desires for a board you access for free.

again just imo. I know I express myself caustically but the sense of entitlement by people demanding changes is kinda repulsive to me.

yet no one told them to code sb in the first place

I did actually

sonofa

oh I heard it was Ian Curtis from beyond the grave

Moderation Discretion is already a lot like a flag system

no one is demanding anything! at least i'm not---i just think that kate's idea is a good one (and one i'd actually had myself after seeing it on another board), and if talking through it attracts the attention of someone who can and is willing to code it, then that's a good thing, right? no one's stamping their feet or feeling entitled to anything. so please don't call me repulsive, ffs.

well he WAS a nazi, so

and anybody who thinks something wasn't needed in light of our trolls & really unpleasant unending clusterfucks is full of shit imo but that's where it comes down to the usual divide here -- people who favor a wild west "if you can't handle being abused, 'man up'" environment vs. people who hate that kind of attitude with a burning passion. I count myself among the latter number. this dispute won't ever be resolved to the satisfaction of either party. wherefore, if you have a better idea, volunteer & implement it, or be quiet, imo

personally I haven't seen ILX add any new functions so I don't see any flag system would ever happening on grounds that it would require programming

can i just say it's completely ridiculous to expect people to code a feature without an agreement from the community to adopt it

people who favor a wild west "if you can't handle being abused, 'man up'" environment vs. people who hate that kind of attitude with a burning passion

That's a false dichotomy tho, eh? I wouldn't put myself in either camp but somewhere in the "civility is in the frequently biased eye of the beholder" position.

REALLY looking forward to reading this GREAT looking thread

That's a false dichotomy tho, eh? I wouldn't put myself in either camp but somewhere in the "civility is in the frequently biased eye of the beholder" position.

SB'd with the fury of 51 socks

Do you know what beef is?

I don't know what language the board is coded in. I used to be reasonably fluent in SQL but it's quite rusty right not. That said, the idea that any mods would let me anywhere near the source code is pretty laughable. I am, however, a programmer, and I currently have fuckloads of free time at work.

As far as I understand it, SB's are already attached to posts - it might be just a case of adapting the existing code. Instead of the "confirm SB" page, insert a value (for reason, if we go with that, from a drop-down box) to the record. I'm guessing the SB record already has ID of the banned, ID of the banner, and the ID of the message it was referred from - because when you SB someone, the link on that post goes read, but the others stay unread, which makes me think that the message ID is passed through. (if the message ID wasn't important, it would be a default link that would be the same for all messages by a user.)

It would actually require a change in behaviour (and changing "suggest ban" to "flag post" on each post) of the users and the mods, more than actual coding, I think. Which might be harder to change, but it would be a better paradigm to build.

can i just say it's completely ridiculous to expect people to code a feature without an agreement from the community to adopt it

Why not? That's how SB got coded in to start with. I certainly never agreed to it.

poll

what would actually be helpful is if the mods or admins actually came out and said a) if they are open to a new feature and b) if they have time to code it or to get another coder started.

so i'm just gonna sit here and hold my breath for that

yeah cuz I have some great ideas for other features!

Do you know what beef is?

beef is when I SB you
guaranteed to number 52