An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

as your pope i think yes

forgive me your holiness for i have sinned ...

do you honestly believe i'm arguing against the proliferation of meta clusterfucks?

wait, are you arguing FOR them?

i will let my pope speak for me.

yes

claro que si

I love this argument that clearly the SB system continues to work completely perfectly, because we have clearly absolutely 0 clusterfucks any more, no problems, everyone comes back from their 30 days perfectly behaving themselves and no one ever gets SB'd multiple times because they have magically via ESP been completely reformed and come back as magically better people (not at all bitter or angry or even just repeating the same things.) Yes! This is completely the truuuuuuuuuuuuth. In a magical wonderland that has nothing to do with ILX as it is right now.

The inherent denial of this kind of conservatism - "everything is working perfectly, there is no reason to change it!" - is almost comical. Because this is seriously just classic right-wing authoritarianism "this is the way it is, it works just fine, and we have to follow it, and never change it, because this is the way the authority made it."

John Justen's "I don't have any problem at all, with this thing - that I am, by the way, totally exempt from ever facing - therefore we do not have to discuss it ever again" is just the very essence of totally blind conservatism, and to me, seems perhaps a sign that he is facing some kind of moderator fatigue if he blindly resists any change or discussion over moderation policy.

No, I am not completely "socially retarded" (nice ablism there) - I am certainly aware that people "H8" me. However, attempting to detangle the threads of those who H8 me for things I cannot change (I am a woman, I'm mentally ill, I might even be a bit autistic by Lamp's lofty standards) from those who H8 me for ridiculous things (because I like Aphex Twin a bit too much, before I think Madonna is better than the Beatles, because I think Slowdive are worse than Hitler) from those who H8 me for politically motivated opinions I foolishly believe should be covered by free speech (because I am not an atheist, because I believe all-male all-white canons are socially rather than aesthetically motivated, because I believe in crazy things like feminism and resisting rape culture and HAES and fat acceptance and neurodiversity and am suspicious of psychopharmaceuticals) - I'm sorry, but if you can manage to detangle the valid "can you not do this, please?" H8 from the yapping tools "OMG crazy cat lady masonic boom tin hats oh noes!" H8 that gets handed on casually on ILX then - mister, you're a better man than I. There is no way to please everyone on ILX. Save maybe for never, ever venturing an opinion, and what kind of messageboard would that create?

From the mere fact that the same people get banned again, and the same behaviour recurs again and the same threads get started again - it seems perfectly clear that it doesn't do what you think it does. And "it works just fine, we're not changing it" is simply not an adequate response when it does not work.

I'm not saying "get rid of suggest ban, bring back the permabanned posters, let's have anarchy" - I'm saying "this could be a better system which might actually be more effective at controlling destructive behaviour while keeping ILX interesting and vibrant, not a paranoid popularity contest."

You're right, you don't have to listen. After all, you can vote me off, but I can't vote you off, John Justen. But it is not an invalid conversation because you are "bored of it."

i mean - who really thinks that scrapping sb for flagging posts is going to result in fewer meta clusterfucks? Instead of "why was dude banned?" it'll be "why did that post get flagged?"

i'm pretty sure that flagging posts vs. suggest ban will likely have the same effect -- if someone feels attacked/targeted/disliked by being sb-ed, then having their posts flagged, and the community response to that will probably result in the same feelings. Like, "How come when I posted that I got flagged, but when another ilxor posted the same thing, that post didn't get flagged?"

well given that "why was dude banned?" has often been answered with "here look at this post right here", i'm not sure that really stands up. i mean, the nice thing about flagging posts is that, generally, the offense is pretty clearly spelt out, with words and letters and everything.

xp

i will let my pope speak for me.

― sarahel, Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:13 PM (5 minutes ago)

I really would like the answer straight from you.

obv it won't -- obv the idea that multiple sb victims like jagger/whiney/cankles etc would be 'reformed' by a post flagging system is absurd -- the sb system does that better because after your second sb you get threatened w/ being kicked off the board

yeah, gbx, but how often is that the end of the discussion/clusterfuck?

I love this argument that clearly the SB system continues to work completely perfectly, because we have clearly absolutely 0 clusterfucks any more, no problems,

the response to that is that those things always happened, under any system. you'll need more justification than that, because i'm pretty sure that there's been lass clusterfuckery since sb came in?

everyone comes back from their 30 days perfectly behaving themselves and no one ever gets SB'd multiple times because they have magically via ESP been completely reformed and come back as magically better people (not at all bitter or angry or even just repeating the same things.) Yes! This is completely the truuuuuuuuuuuuth. In a magical wonderland that has nothing to do with ILX as it is right now.

it's unfortunately not the truth, but tbh it's not up to the rest of us how anyone wants to behave on ilx. we do have the sb utton though, maybe people should take that into account? i dunno.

altho tbf i sb kate and every woman on the board because i hate women -- somehow i wish they would understand this better

i feel like everyone should have to enter demographic info, and then we could just across the board sb all users that based on demographic info that we find distasteful, because of how everyone sbs kate because she's a woman

WmC - I was previously banned for engaging in meta-clusterfuckery. I was making a joke based on my "reputation"

altho tbf i sb kate and every woman on the board because i hate women -- somehow i wish they would understand this better

― J0rdan S., Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:26 PM (1 second ago)

I would like to request a conversation of civility and earnestness, not snark.

those who H8 me for things I cannot change (I am a woman)

earnestness!

-Flagging a post means that a problem is dealt with, there and then, rather than up to 6 months later, which the current SB system allows

-Flagging a post tells the "culprit" that "it was this post here, where you called Poster X a hairy goatfucker which made 17 people flag you for bestiality" instead of them desperately thinking "what was it? was it that time I told Dan he had dangleberries? was it the time I picked Revolver over Sgt Pepper? was it the time I got a bit heated over Cameron/Clegg slash? Or something I've completely forgotten I even said?" You can pretend people know exactly what the problem was. They don't.

-Flagging a post not a poster means that the focus is on *behaviour* not on the individual. Because even me, crazy cat lady that everyone HAAAAAAAAATES, starts threads about Astronomy Picture of the Day or shit that lots of people enjoy. Almost every poster on this board is capable of *both* clusterfuckery *and* good fun threads with pithy posts. The SB system as it is makes no differentiation. It could, and it should.

god grant me the serenity ...

if you annoy 51 different ppl in any 'community', seems fair that those 51 ppl can have a break from you for a month or so

Hey, I've just given my first SB in this thread. I wish I had been able to just flag up "I find this post unacceptable" instead, but I don't have that option.

Now I'm going to go, because you are really getting on my damn fibroids, Jordan.

Hey, I've just given my first SB in this thread. I wish I had been able to just flag up "I find this post unacceptable" instead, but I don't have that option.

Now I'm going to go, because you are really getting on my damn fibroids, Jordan.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:31 PM (1 second ago) Bookmark

flagged this post for bestiality

to accept the things i can't change ...

actually i should stop the snark -- i flagged the post because i hate you because you're a woman that resists rape culture

the courage to change the things i can ...

j0rdan srsly, yr gonna get tempbanned if you carry on thusly

Ok Kate as a vocal opponent of sb, please explain to me why you have given out over 30 of them, because that seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

and the wisdom to know the difference between the two

many xposts but i'm w/kate here

main difference is that ~flagging~ anonymously happens silently, and is only visible to the mods. they can then investigate the offending post, and decide from there if it merits further action. if ppl lol flag a post from an ilxor they personally dislike, it'll be pretty obvious to whatever moderators check it out. SBs can accumulate for reasons that have nothing do w/actually offensive behavior (by ilx community standards), and once they fire, they fire. but if a poster keeps getting innocuous posts flagged, they won't necessarily get the boot.

what's funny is that the anonymity of SBing is why it can be misused, but is also precisely why flagging is a good idea. if someone thinks a post is offensive for maybe personal reasons, they should be able to raise the alarm w/o starting a mod request thread saying "i think, personally, that this post is gross/racist/whatever" and inviting recrimination. or having to email a mod directly, etc.

I have tempbanned J0rdan

calling people by their real SBs when shit gets heated

Suggest Ban Permalink

if you annoy 51 different ppl in any 'community', seems fair that those 51 ppl can have a break from you for a month or so

― Ward Fowler, Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:31 PM (56 seconds ago) Bookmark

what if there are 500 people who don't want you banished? where is their vote?

xp - i was unclear on whether the flagging would be public or private

i think the mods should come up with a system that changes for each individual so that nobody ever gets banned, except for the things i want them to get banned for.

^^^ nail on the head

An ideal outcome right now would be several people flagging Jordan for "ad hominem" and a helpful mod comes along, yellow cards him saying "enough snark" and then threadbans him if he doesn't knock it off.

Wouldn't that produce a better immediate outcome than him just getting SB'd two weeks down the road when everyone's forgotten what this thread was even about?

amen

would like to register protest at jordan getting tempbanned for lowerin himself to the tone of the debate

those 500 people are all socks tho
xps

In the heat of passionate clusterfucks, won't people get even more defensive and then irate if they're all of a sudden notified that they're offending people? Maybe not, I'm just spitballing here.

would like to hear from my pope on this matter tbrr

x-post thank you WmC

dmac did you actually read what j0rdan was saying? come on man

j0rdan was being a dick in this thread

like, I <3 the guy usually but he's the only person who's ever driven me to SB out of rage - his handling of sensitive meta-debate is inflammatory at best

i read all the posts lj.

J0rdan: unless another mod unbans you, you're gone for 15 days. A polite request was made, you ignored it. then you made a rape joke to someone who's made it clear that she's a rape survivor. why shouldn't this be a permaban?

because a permaban would be way too harsh

glad I cd do my little bit to keep 1980s hate speech alive

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Content/Image/02-22-2008/Joe-Louis.jpg

Do you know what beef is?

beef is when I SB you
guaranteed to number 52

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:31 PM bookmarkflaglink

Beef is when yr mods aren't safe up in the street

― a ticker tape of "must not fuck up" (Noodle Vague), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

beef is when your socks roll several log-ins deep

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

helluva run here, bravo

did we ever get this sorted

suggest bank