An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

That list of things ILX won't tolerate is fairly unobjectionable, but ad hom and bullying are gonna be tough judgement calls on occasion. And if the point of modding is to make the board a more pleasant/tolerable experience for its users, why would constant hobbyhorsing, for example, not be a valid ground for a flag too?

The reason I don't think that hobbyhorsing is a problem is because of posters like, for example Geir. I don't want to be on a board where that is considered a crime. Hobbyhorsing without rudeness or ad hominem is part of what makes ILX a diverse & interesting place.

The other thing I wished to add is to discern between "meta" meaning discussing the rules, mores and structure of ILX which is "deal with it" territory and meta meaning discussing individuals and posters which potentially is ad hominem and I feel is up for flagging. The terms are often used interchangeably. I am not using them in that sense.

whats hobbyhorsing?

Making the same "point" in countless threads with little to no effort to engage in a dialogue or advance the sum total of human knowledge.

...

1) Ad hominem attacks
2) Bullying
3) Racism
4) Sexism/Misogyny
5) Homophobia
6) Hate Speech (other)

the mods already take care of all these pretty effectively imo.

Note what reasons are not given: this system is *not* for things one finds annoying but not mod-worthy

i don't agree with it, but my understanding is that this is exactly what SB is supposed to capture: low level dickishness.

if the mods find it useful/reassuring to have the silent support of SBs before they make a moderation decision they would have hesitated to make on their own, then i'm all for keeping it. and when they make that decision, they can tell the problem poster why.

but 51 = 30 days, 102 = 60 days automated bans seem to be treated like a force of nature by the mods simply because keith wrote the code that way. and in practice they've resulted in a mixture of absurd and uncool popularity contest bans that make ilx a worse place, and perfectly sensible bans/timeouts for bad faith dickishness the mods could have done themselves. just get rid of the autoban, keep the "suggest ban" button as an "fyi this post annoyed me" if the mods fine it useful, and the system is fine.

Seems fair. I don't think the argument about what kinds of post should get you SB'd has much point, or will ever be agreed on, but the main flaw in the system at the moment is maybe caused by malicious feud SBs or something.

KDT, thanks for a well thought out and well expressed summary of yr objections to the SB system. I just got up and am processing 1st caffeine of the day, and won't post my thoughts on here without thinking them through and wording them carefully, but I did want to let you know that this thread has caught mod attention and isn't going to be ignored.

xp, or something, i think. would have to be a pretty weird malicious feud to get you 51 clicks before a mod intervened.

my impression is people SB it in two situations (1) obvious bannable offence, "i would ban this person right now if i were a mod" and (2) i find this person annoying or i don't like them or the argument they are advancing annoying or disruptive.

(1) is pointless, that's what mods are for.

and re (2), like kate says, having a piece of code ban people when 51 people click for the range of non-specific reasons that no one knows, including the victim, hasn't changed a single person's behaviour. it's totally passive aggressive and it's solved nothing.

but more important point from my POV is it's a bullshit 6th form popularity ban, and it makes ilx less interesting.

p.s. free dom.

Lamp was right, of course, that the main function of the SB system is to generate epic drama.

Saint Dominic of Northampton obviously not banned because of SB or because of a g.d. popularity contest, but yeah, free dom.

A click button registration of STFU aimed at an annoying post has therapeutic value, at least. Would be cool with a more harmless and funnier system being introduced.

as drama goes, sb clusterfucks are pretty mild. ilx is less dramatic than it was.

i think that's almost entirely because half a dozen posters were banned by mods, and has nothing to do with the presence or otherwise of sb.

feel like Karen D. Tregaskin makes pretty reasonable points

yeah

What is the purpose of the suggest ban system? I am asking this now, in a lull, in the hopes that we can reasonably and non-specifically address a potential alternative.
-Is it to attempt to punish or reform the behaviour of out of control or problem posters?

-Is it to lighten the workload of the mods, and eliminate the need for "Ban Poster X" campaigns?

-Is it to create a general air of paranoia, fear and suspicion, dissuade posters from expressing views they fear may be unpopular, and drive the creation of new screen names and socks to express opinions?

1 yes, 2 no, 3 no.

I'm not a board historian so my memory of the situation may be faulty; if I have any of this wrong, please let me know. When administration of the site passed from Andrew Eneff to Stet, he and Keith determined that it would be a good idea or even necessary to rewrite the site coding from the ground up, and took that opportunity to write in a bunch of additional functionality. One of the big knocks against then-current site moderation was that all the policing power was in the hands of a very few, so the SB system was created to let everybody have a say in identifying, censuring and banning problem posters.

It certainly didn't lighten moderator workload, since the automatic-banning function either broke or was disabled early on. For most of the history of the SB system, mods have kept an eye on accumulating SBs and acted on them without any automated system in place.

It's a very flawed system. There are instances of people getting SB'd for being who they are, not for what they've posted -- coming back from a month's ban and getting SB'd for a completely innocuous post by someone who simply does not want that person posting on ILX. I have been loath to delete these bogus SBs because it seemed like a slippery slope where mods go down a list of SBs and say "your opinion is worthy...your opinion is unworthy...worthy...worthy...unworthy..." etc. But the result is people having SBs they shouldn't have. The six-month expiration of SBs has ameliorated that to an extent, imo.

Which brings us to the present day.

Long answer short: I like the idea of the Report/Flag Post system, and the idea of censuring posts, rather than posters. I do think it would be a huge improvement on the current SB system. It totally throws the ball into stet's court, though.

I won't comment further on the devil-in-the-details of a Flag Post system until stet has weighed in on it. But I do agree that there are enough problems with the SB system to consider scrapping it for something better.

I don't see any issues with the sb system and I see no reason to change it. This is like the tenth thread we've had about this, and I would prefer not to do all this over again, but if we have to, I'll go ahead and bring up the same arguments we have every time.

cosign with jjjusten

arguing abt it is completely pointless tho, people who hate SB are resolute & people who don't see a problem with it think the objectors minimize the problems created by people who constantly attack, derail, obstruct, etc

i do think though that anybody who coded an alternate system would get a fair hearing tho. not described what the code might do, but coded it themselves. it would be a lot of work, but not really much more work than participating in heated anti-SB threads.

n/f jaundy slobs on mod's knobs

i mostly wish that the mods hadnt implemented an expiration d8 on sbs - wouldve been lol to see who the last non mod standing was as all regs slowly got 51. as it stands nowwwww feel like you have to be p socially retarded not to get why ppl h8 u but i guess 'being socially retarded' may well be the reason so many ppl h8 u

wld LOVE to force ppl to give reasonings behind sb - this is only for lulz - wld sb p much everyone of this was the case fyi

I like Lamp's stance on this because it's this very benign sort of berzerker sociopathy

I think the SB system is better than nothing, but I also think KDT makes legit points.

yeah, i've seen post flagging (v user flagging) work well on other boards. makes a ton of sense imo

foursquare with jjusten here. not sure what new points have been raised, though it's useful to start a new thread for each poster who has a problem with the sb system, definitely.

maybe tuomas can start his own one when w're done here, then whiney then gabbneb then lj twice, then etc

not sure what new points have been raised,

flagging posts instead of posters has been brought up before?

Re: post flagging - that's how sb works tho, mods can see which posts have been sbed - so not really sure what the difference here would be.

because there's no accumulated point system to notifications.

the difference is the user is aware of flag not just mods (xp)

i would hazard the guess that most of the people who get 30 day timeouts don't really give a shit if they piss people off, because ILX isn't that crucial a part of their well-being.

and - so if we implement this post flagging thing, we can have clusterfuck threads about flagged posts!

simply letting people see how many sb's they have would address a lot of the complaints about the current system with minimal extra work (as compared to a whole new system, flagging posts, etc)

i would hazard the guess that most of the people who get 30 day timeouts don't really give a shit if they piss people off, because ILX isn't that crucial a part of their well-being

i guess thats why so many of them still read it all the time & use intermediaries to post shit

there's a difference between a habitual distraction and crucial part of one's well-being

just sb'd you in the interest of field testing this theory

LOL!

idk a clusterfuck about the content of a flagged post would at least be more interesting and productive than another clusterfuck about the validity of abstract sbs

4 billion xps to sarahel

limited no of sb's you can give in 6 months, say 51?

but i'm pretty sure all of this has been discussed.

the 'flag a post, not a poster' idea just throws it back on the mods to do what they've always done, and there were neither fewer bannings nor fewer dramas back then.

well, yeah, it would definitely be more interesting, hoos, but some people want there to be as few meta clusterfucks as possible.

but we're having them anyway! give the kids the condoms!

^ the pope

Just as long as it all goes in the Admin Log

we were having them before anyway, ffs. we'll have them anyway under any system. but this way a fairly large number of board users each register the decision, as opposed to jjusten or hi dere getting dog's abuse for perfectly legit bannings from a message board.

do you honestly believe i'm arguing against the proliferation of meta clusterfucks?

as your pope i think yes

forgive me your holiness for i have sinned ...

do you honestly believe i'm arguing against the proliferation of meta clusterfucks?

wait, are you arguing FOR them?

i will let my pope speak for me.

yes

claro que si

I love this argument that clearly the SB system continues to work completely perfectly, because we have clearly absolutely 0 clusterfucks any more, no problems, everyone comes back from their 30 days perfectly behaving themselves and no one ever gets SB'd multiple times because they have magically via ESP been completely reformed and come back as magically better people (not at all bitter or angry or even just repeating the same things.) Yes! This is completely the truuuuuuuuuuuuth. In a magical wonderland that has nothing to do with ILX as it is right now.

The inherent denial of this kind of conservatism - "everything is working perfectly, there is no reason to change it!" - is almost comical. Because this is seriously just classic right-wing authoritarianism "this is the way it is, it works just fine, and we have to follow it, and never change it, because this is the way the authority made it."

John Justen's "I don't have any problem at all, with this thing - that I am, by the way, totally exempt from ever facing - therefore we do not have to discuss it ever again" is just the very essence of totally blind conservatism, and to me, seems perhaps a sign that he is facing some kind of moderator fatigue if he blindly resists any change or discussion over moderation policy.

No, I am not completely "socially retarded" (nice ablism there) - I am certainly aware that people "H8" me. However, attempting to detangle the threads of those who H8 me for things I cannot change (I am a woman, I'm mentally ill, I might even be a bit autistic by Lamp's lofty standards) from those who H8 me for ridiculous things (because I like Aphex Twin a bit too much, before I think Madonna is better than the Beatles, because I think Slowdive are worse than Hitler) from those who H8 me for politically motivated opinions I foolishly believe should be covered by free speech (because I am not an atheist, because I believe all-male all-white canons are socially rather than aesthetically motivated, because I believe in crazy things like feminism and resisting rape culture and HAES and fat acceptance and neurodiversity and am suspicious of psychopharmaceuticals) - I'm sorry, but if you can manage to detangle the valid "can you not do this, please?" H8 from the yapping tools "OMG crazy cat lady masonic boom tin hats oh noes!" H8 that gets handed on casually on ILX then - mister, you're a better man than I. There is no way to please everyone on ILX. Save maybe for never, ever venturing an opinion, and what kind of messageboard would that create?

From the mere fact that the same people get banned again, and the same behaviour recurs again and the same threads get started again - it seems perfectly clear that it doesn't do what you think it does. And "it works just fine, we're not changing it" is simply not an adequate response when it does not work.

I'm not saying "get rid of suggest ban, bring back the permabanned posters, let's have anarchy" - I'm saying "this could be a better system which might actually be more effective at controlling destructive behaviour while keeping ILX interesting and vibrant, not a paranoid popularity contest."

You're right, you don't have to listen. After all, you can vote me off, but I can't vote you off, John Justen. But it is not an invalid conversation because you are "bored of it."

i mean - who really thinks that scrapping sb for flagging posts is going to result in fewer meta clusterfucks? Instead of "why was dude banned?" it'll be "why did that post get flagged?"

I don't see why obsessing about a specific thing in a thread devoted to it is wrong

What about a thread you think is devoted to it but is actually a thread devoted to something else entitrely and what you are really doing is instigating a damaging, counterproductive and annoying derail?

but you want to help define what those standards are, surely?

No, I'm perfectly fine with the standars we've had for years. They seem pretty sensible and are about the same as on any good message board.

What about a thread you think is devoted to it but is actually a thread devoted to something else entitrely and what you are really doing is instigating a damaging, counterproductive and annoying derail?

Then the mods can yellowcard/notify the poster or ban him from the thread.

In British political history, and I assume in that of many other countries, innovation was frequently introduced by an appeal to a return to well-known, long-standing standards.

NV OTM. That's why innocuous seeming posts like Kate's starting this thread also get SBs -- the message I get there is "stop hammering this one".

It comes back to the difference between posts and users again. ILX is pretty good at handling a bad post; even those that on their own are harmless but form a larger pattern. There's no shortage of feedback.

A problem arises when a poster doesn't listen to the feedback and carries on anyway, so pretty soon the board is yelling "yes we get your opinion/mission/need to overshare on this, stfu already" and the poster keeps charging on. That sort of behaviour pretty quickly leads to an SB. I think that's fair, even if the actual SB post is relatively innocuous in isolation.

(On yr other point: none of the improvements I talked about are technical, they're all policy)

XP: OK if thats what you think it should be about, fine. It sounds similar to Kate's post-flagging idea. But that's not actually what the SB system is about, for reasons I said earlier.

As for judging fairly, the relevant policy rule here is "don't be a dick". The varying opinions of people who give SBs help define what that means for ILX. Has anyone been banned who wasn't being a bit of a dick?

Then the mods can yellowcard/notify the poster or ban him from the thread.

Okay then, you're banned from the thread. This is not a thread for you to carry out the same argument you have multiple times before, it's a thread to discuss specific suggestions put forward by Kate.

http://avatars.postiton.net/avatars/Weezer.gifI'd like to take this moment to stan for the Green Album over the Blue Album and Pinkerton. Thanks.

Thumbs Upped u for that

http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/avatars/funny/images/avfunny3.gif<3 the potleaf goin down the highway one so much

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/64s/8696337.jpgomg did Matt DC really threadban Tuomas

it was the wisdom of Lamp and the lol of ENBB that brought me over

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:46 AM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

tuomas is the only constant in this crazy thread

I actually did threadban Tuomas, but he did make it impossible to resist. I'll let him back in a few minutes.

take your time. hungry? want a drink or a snack? maybe you need a quick nap first.

http://img1.jurko.net/avatar_2892.gifwhen he comes back can he have this avatar perma-assigned to his posts

http://www.avatarsdb.com/avatars/dog_sunglasses.gif yeah give him a few days, he'll just clock SBs otherwise

http://www.avatarsdb.com/avatars/dog_and_butterfly.gif endorse j0hn's gif, but for Geir

http://www.yourspacenow.com/img/animated183.gif I think this one's going to run and run
______________________________________________

You can take a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/ubi82/shit%20i%20made/SUPPLIES.gif wait what happened to tuomas??

---------------

I LOVE the smell of napalm in the morning!

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting--
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

Poems better than avatars. Thx for that, gbx.

mandatory avatars AND mandatory poem sigfiles

problem solved

it was the wisdom of Lamp and the lol of ENBB that brought me over

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:46 AM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark

I just wanna step in here to take credit for finding that "PIMPIN BITCH" avatar for ENBB

credit crut pimpin the enbbconomy

LOL. OH NO should I have given credit for that? That was all curtis.

The fact that this thread went off the rails again was entirely countered by Noodle's use of the word 'blanketly'.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2udyu5e.jpg many lolz @ tamtam itt

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http://blog.lawyerahead.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tupac-shakur-wallpaper-6.jpg

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/jewish_dogs.jpg totally, he's making me reconsider

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http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2789/shirt30vg.jpg

"FAHGEDDABOUT IT!"

should I read this thread or

skim it for the avatars

go volunteer at a soup kitchen or something

J0rdan teaching me how to live

Hi,
I want to edit or take down a post I made years ago which reads all wrong (not at all like I meant) but my old user name "does not exist in DB", how can I get rid of it?
It is here: Which language has the best swearwords?
CT

hahahaha

im 'avin that

pack it in you fucking joeys

am not condoning the use of those words, more laughing at CT's predicament and retrospective shame

ahem

?

We've all said silly shit under our govt names in the past

my choice of rebuke may have indicated a lack of sincerity in its intention

1. Joey 1966 up, 893 down

buy joey mugs, tshirts and magnets
The hottest sexiest thing alive. I wanna lick his face off.
I wish my boyfriend was a Joey.
I know don't we all?
smexy fishy hawt joey martin

ah wait, definition 4 brings it

ha

glad I cd do my little bit to keep 1980s hate speech alive

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Content/Image/02-22-2008/Joe-Louis.jpg

Do you know what beef is?

beef is when I SB you
guaranteed to number 52

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:31 PM bookmarkflaglink

Beef is when yr mods aren't safe up in the street

― a ticker tape of "must not fuck up" (Noodle Vague), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

beef is when your socks roll several log-ins deep

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:32 PM bookmarkflaglink

helluva run here, bravo

did we ever get this sorted

suggest bank