i actually like triton and stars more than i do dhalgren, not entirely sure why
― thomp, Friday, 29 October 2010 12:23 (eight years ago) link
congratulations u dont like kiddie sex
― plax (ico), Friday, 29 October 2010 12:26 (eight years ago) link
wait, what happened to the thread title?
― once a remy bean always a (remy bean), Friday, 29 October 2010 12:53 (eight years ago) link
surely the lead's relationship with an autistic character in 'stars ...' is just as troubling on that level as the fifteen year old in dhalgren? or is there something i'm forgetting. i mean, none of these books is quite hogg, i mean.
― thomp, Friday, 29 October 2010 13:00 (eight years ago) link
yeah, i feel like the quote-unquote kiddie sex in dhalgren is totally an exploration of transgression and mental/social/literary breakdown that isn't really about what it's about.
of course, that could also be the polite lie i tell myself so that i can enjoy the rest of the book.
― once a remy bean always a (remy bean), Friday, 29 October 2010 13:23 (eight years ago) link
I changed the title from "Sam Delany" to "Samuel Delany."
― Unfrozen Caveman Board-Lawyer (WmC), Friday, 29 October 2010 13:28 (eight years ago) link
a regular Chip off the old block?
― once a remy bean always a (remy bean), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:43 (eight years ago) link
― Unfrozen Caveman Board-Lawyer (WmC), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:48 (eight years ago) link
WmC - I forgive you.
im reading a book of short stories by this guy and hes hella easy to find v cheap
Lots of Delany around but I've never seen a copy of Stars
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 30 October 2010 08:04 (eight years ago) link
Not having read Dhalgren, Babel-17 is the best of his I have read: so joyously full of great ideas, so much bouncy FUN
― buildings with goats on the roof (James Morrison), Sunday, 31 October 2010 06:40 (eight years ago) link
I just finished Dhalgren, so great, thanks guys. Call me a fag, but I always get a little bit sad when I finish a big novel and this was no exception. I'm thinking of reading Stars now.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 2 January 2011 20:51 (eight years ago) link
call me a fag
― plax (ico), Sunday, 2 January 2011 21:01 (eight years ago) link
Just finished Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. Totally different pace from Dhalgren, this had me clawing for the main narrative for most of the book. As a result, I really didn't give enough attention to some of the detailed description which I feel is a really big part of this book - to realise the sensations and image of these planets, especially Velm. The relationship between Marq and Rat made me quite sick, knowing you can't help but be attracted to another being is somewhat sickening, Marq didn't complain of course, but like those couples who seem so made for eachother, as a couple they struck me as boring and corny.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Monday, 21 February 2011 15:04 (eight years ago) link
the hands-as-parentheses bit is pretty central, iirc
i'm curious what the other half of it would have looked like: a tour of a planet from the other set of aliens (the Family?), plus a coda? i don't know. i don't remember a lot of the details but it's my favourite of his books. this is in part due to a bit which isn't particularly central to the thrust of the book in itself, that part in the opening section where rat (?) finds a mental implant that lets him read/experience the entire western canon in seconds; that hit me in a peculiar way, as a teen.
― thomp, Monday, 21 February 2011 15:15 (eight years ago) link
I was particularly taken by that opening section too, and was expecting the book to take off from there, to my surprise, it was not to be. Thanks for your thoughts.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Monday, 21 February 2011 16:09 (eight years ago) link
I've bought Dhalgren, and keep picking it up, but it's so huuuuuge. Need to gather my resources.
― the most cuddlesome bug that ever was borned (James Morrison), Monday, 21 February 2011 22:49 (eight years ago) link
I read Driftglass in my early teens. Didn't get everything but got a lot. Delany for me will always represent vistas opening (yet in truth I never read much past Nova). "Night and The Loves..." was exactly what I wished a short story would do. It probably still is but I don't dare reread it. His use, over and over, of teen-prodigy characters didn't seem realistic when I was that age, and far into adulthood, having seen a certain amount, I find it a gimmick and more about Delany (or SF) than about the world.
These days, the imaginary world of Delany that fascinates me is his lost New York, as unreachable as his distant planets.
― alimosina, Monday, 21 February 2011 23:42 (eight years ago) link
Editing issue: should be "did exactly what" and "probably still does."
― alimosina, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 15:13 (eight years ago) link
I shall begin reading The Mad Man soon, I'm expecting some of Delany's 'lost New York'.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 15:43 (eight years ago) link
You won't be disappointed there, as I recall.
― old man yells at poop first thing in the morning (pixel farmer), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:36 (eight years ago) link
And check Heavenly Breakfast, an autobiographical novel(pub. 1979). Its title is also the name of a real-life 60s NYC psych-folk band. SD was a satellite member, sort of.
― dow, Tuesday, 1 March 2011 00:33 (eight years ago) link
Also loads of 1960-1965 Manhattan in his memoir, The Motion of Light in Water.
I was just looking at the wiki for his next novel -- it's done, he's just having trouble finding a publisher. It was originally supposed to be published by Alyson Publications, but apparently they've gone under and he's back to shopping it around to publishers.
― WmC, Tuesday, 1 March 2011 01:49 (eight years ago) link
Man, I'm just finishing up The Mad Man(took me 5 months wtf?! I've been busy). Insane book, really, but Delany really knows how to challenge and reward I think, just as you're becoming insensitive to some bloke shitting all over another blokes face whilst a group of other guys are jacking off all over the guy who is getting shitted on, he throws you a bone. Fantastic.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 14 August 2011 13:24 (eight years ago) link
try hogg next, then. no thrown bones in that one.
― king of torts (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 14 August 2011 19:04 (eight years ago) link
Finally reading Auden's Dyer's Hand, which is everything Motion of Light in Water made it out to be and more -- the secondhand quote that Delany gives from it is golden -- and really perfect for Motion..., which is one of my fav Delany books, and fav. works of literary autobiography full stop. There's so many scenes that I remember really clearly from it -- the pockets thing, for example!
― s.clover, Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:12 (eight years ago) link
a tour of a planet from the other set of aliens (the Family?)
as i understand it, the sygn and family don't exactly work like this ... you might be reading it a bit too much like star trek. the sygn and the family are names for philosophies, not rigid political groups like the federation and klingons.
i forget whether it's the north or the south where humans and evelm don't get along, but in that half of the world you might say the family philosophy is predominant - you are a human first, or an evelm first, and you find strength in that mentality.
in the sygn communities you are a free thinking subject first, and you sort of choose your family or define it as you see it, and your identity (racial, gender, cultural, whatever) comes second.
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:45 (eight years ago) link
never read him, should I go?
― Jung Danjah (admrl), Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:46 (eight years ago) link
he is one of my favorite authors and i found him really tedious. i posted a thread about going to see him, it was an awful experience. he mostly talked about discovering he was bisexual, how he got into cruising times square porn theatres, and the gradual erosion of our shared times square porn theatre cultural heritage.
if you are a bicurious or a queer theory grad student you might find it highly stimulating? but as a sci fi fan, or just for kicks, no.
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:50 (eight years ago) link
― Jung Danjah (admrl), Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:51 (eight years ago) link
. this is in part due to a bit which isn't particularly central to the thrust of the book in itself, that part in the opening section where rat (?) finds a mental implant that lets him read/experience the entire western canon in seconds
this *is* central to the thrust of the book itself
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 18 August 2011 18:52 (eight years ago) link
he's one of martin skidmore's favorite authors. the guy doing martin's funeral service today read from something martin wrote about dhalgren, which i found really moving. it was martin's favorite book.
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 18 August 2011 19:23 (eight years ago) link
really want to hear sam delaney monologuing about cruising
― plax (ico), Thursday, 18 August 2011 21:39 (eight years ago) link
i found it hard to follow because a lot of it was in reference to cruising scenes in post-70s delany i hadn't read.
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 18 August 2011 22:28 (eight years ago) link
i really want to read some more delaney, when i was in america you could pick up cheap paperbacks by him really easily but over here he's p hard to come by
― plax (ico), Thursday, 18 August 2011 22:31 (eight years ago) link
― plax (ico), Thursday, August 18, 2011
there's a whole book about this btw
― king of torts (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 19 August 2011 01:04 (eight years ago) link
yeah, baja's summary of the event sounds a lot like 'times square red, times square blue'
― thomp, Friday, 19 August 2011 01:21 (eight years ago) link
that was the book!
― mr peabody (moonship journey to baja), Friday, 19 August 2011 01:42 (eight years ago) link
I haven't read Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, but his book The Mad Man features a lot of cruising, the porn theatres are involved too, the book also documents the impact of AIDS on the gay community. The way Delany describes them, those porn theatres were really home to a kind of exchange and communication that is seldom seen nowadays, I'm not a queer theorist though.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Friday, 19 August 2011 11:54 (eight years ago) link
that's the thesis of times square blue (which is the second half of 'times square red...', the first ('times square red', natch) being a memoir of them): that the sexual motivation to go into those locales actually underscored and expedited a whole raft of non-sexual contact up and down the social scale, & that in 'cleaning up' times square (& in similar efforts elsewhere) we're making movement lateral to one's class boundaries much less likely. i don't know in what form it creeps into the novel; never found a copy of 'the mad man'. (almost wrote 'mad men'.)
― thomp, Friday, 19 August 2011 12:00 (eight years ago) link
I think that argument is certainly a big part of the mad man novel. I should really give times square red, time square blue a read.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Friday, 19 August 2011 12:23 (eight years ago) link
― Singularities Going Steady (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 31 March 2012 17:17 (seven years ago) link
found a copy of 'the mad man'
― thomp, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:02 (seven years ago) link
nice! let us know how it is, i've never read it.
i've started on my draft of "the splendor and misery of bodies, of cities", brian herbert and kevin j anderson style
― the late great, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:08 (seven years ago) link
i'm at the part where rat and marq sneak into the xlv fleet and commandeer a stolen experimental fighter, it turns out that the rings of vondramach okk allow rat to interface w/ xlv biocomputers!
― the late great, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:09 (seven years ago) link
making movement lateral to one's class boundaries much less likely reminds me of Charlie Haden and others on living in 60s Lower East Side tenements, all those artists in dif genres and media in same bldgs--plus a lot of other characters--this way on into late 70s too
― dow, Monday, 30 July 2012 00:43 (seven years ago) link
Not only easier to speak of, but it also has its real importance -- important enough so that when such encounters as the above three -- as opposed to any of the others I've described -- cease, one seeks out other cruising grounds. Several times since high school I've abandoned one area of the city for another, when forces I will never comprehend drive down the number of such accessible, satisfying exchanges, whose satisfaction is always, Sam, measured on a (or on several) scale(s) more complex than the sexual. Yet, in all cases, a dismal, gray and unresponsive ground is the incomprehensible template against which they occur, not throwing themselves into relief so much as providing a necessary obscurity to their outlines, making them bearable, even possible (making them hard of impossible for we who indulge in them to speak of in any terms save the sexual, even as they are, in their actuality, wholly social), in a world that largely denies they exist.
― thomp, Monday, 6 August 2012 21:00 (seven years ago) link
which is to say that the mad man has its elements of elegy for the cruising scene too, though the action (structure?) of the novel is weirdly orthogonal to that.
― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 14 August 2011 13:24 (11 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this seems like a really weird way to be reading this. ('that movie deep throat really manages challenge and reward the viewer, it's amazing how much you want to get to the end of the next blowjob..')
(weird how the rhythms of pornography are still deducible, compelling even if it's pornography you find (abhorrent? not to your taste? well, maybe reading some-hundred pages of it is enough to make it more the latter and not the former) -- either that or i secretly long to have homeless new yorkers of the 80s excrete in my mouth -- delany's reliance on parentheticals is both contagious and compelling.
i read this over like 72 hours, which is the quickest i've read anything of equivalent .. length, density .. in a while.
want to say something about the intersection of different narrative styles (campus novel, detective novel) with the novel's pornotopia, also the different characters as different biographical displacements of delany, also the enjoyably (deliberately?) stilted moments of dialogue common to all delany's 'serious' work. on the other hand, don't want to burn myself out when i will probably start in the valley of the nest of spiders tomorrow
― thomp, Monday, 6 August 2012 21:28 (seven years ago) link
I found a used paperback of The Mad Man in a store in Gainesville in 2001. In the SF section, natch. brought it home and discovered a $20 bill in the middle. Like you, thomp, I couldn't put the book down and read it in the course of a few days. There was an element of tourism I'm sure, as a straight male on the vanilla end of the spectrum, but that was far from the only driver. It really is an amazing book.
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 15:55 (seven years ago) link
Mad ol' me, have an unread copy of this since since '07. Will get onto it ASAP.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 22:07 (seven years ago) link
on the other hand, i flicked ahead to see quite how long the first truck stop bathroom sex scene in ...spiders goes on for, and put the book down, and haven't picked it up again yet.
― thomp, Thursday, 9 August 2012 10:57 (seven years ago) link
Terrific how Delany was worked into this piece on Chaturbate
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 October 2015 15:15 (three years ago) link
Emily Witt has now built a fine, fine portfolio of pieces on this intersection of sex and the interwebs.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 October 2015 15:16 (three years ago) link
I haven't read the whole thing so I can't judge but some stuff Delany has said about child abuse and nambla probably wouldn't have been received nearly as well if he wasn't considered such a hero and so good writing about race. He's in the comments too.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 20:41 (three years ago) link
I struggle so much with this - as a person who, when underage, had meaningful relationships with people who were above the age of consent, which, 35 years later, I still don't think of as wrong or hurtful - it's a difficult discussion to have without seeming like a monster. certainly when Delaney says that, at the age of nine, he was entering into consensual sexual relationships with adults...I'm a dad now, two boys: I can't accept that, viscerally I reject that. but at the same time, I got a letter from a Joan Crawford fan a month ago or so: a dude who's doing twenty years in prison. he was in his late twenties having a relationship with a sixteen-year-old boy, and the parents got wind of it, and they threw the book at him. I looked up his case: his victim insisted no victimization had ever taken place, but the southern judge didn't care at all, and put him away. where's the justice in that? I feel like this is Delaney's point broadly put, but the concept of an age of consent feels valuable.
― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 21:26 (three years ago) link
one of the most struggly subjects there is. I have not even the faintest stab at encompassing it.
― I wish you could see my home. It's... it's so... exciting (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 21:28 (three years ago) link
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:41 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's a very difficult topic but framing it this way is disingenuous garbage.
― until the next, delayed, glaciation (map), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 22:16 (three years ago) link
delany isn't a race writer. did you mean "because he's black?"
― until the next, delayed, glaciation (map), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 22:20 (three years ago) link
he's not a good writer either tbf
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 22:23 (three years ago) link
I can't have much of an opinion on something I haven't finished but I doubt most other writers talking about similar things would be treated so well. The interview happened because it was being said too many big figures in the genre were getting a free pass while others were getting a ton of shit for relatively minor things, but nobody really knew a lot about Delany's stance on this stuff. Do you think I'm implying he should be dragged through the dirt for his opinions?
No, because he wrote some very good articles on racism in the past that have been heavily circulated and praised in the past several years when the topic has been at the forefront of sff discussions.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 22:42 (three years ago) link
― until the next, delayed, glaciation (map), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 23:40 (three years ago) link
sorry i had my hackles up
― until the next, delayed, glaciation (map), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 23:41 (three years ago) link
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 23:44 (three years ago) link
Happy 75th birthday.
― scattered, smothered, covered, diced and chunked (WilliamC), Sunday, 2 April 2017 00:18 (two years ago) link
I'm always scared to open this thread.
― change display name (Jordan), Sunday, 2 April 2017 00:27 (two years ago) link
This thread is v repetitive
― Οὖτις, Sunday, 2 April 2017 01:20 (two years ago) link
In Glasgow for several events during the next Arika eisode:
― Susan Stranglehands (jed_), Sunday, 29 October 2017 14:50 (one year ago) link
Just finished Dhalgren, my first trip into Delany. I really liked large chunks of it, but other portions were definitely a slog. Even aside from the tedious descriptions of underage orgies, it did feel like some of the same plot points just kept cycling through without moving the story forward. But many of the characters were terrifically drawn and I enjoyed his world-building, what's a good next step?
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 13:14 (four months ago) link
I enjoyed Dhalgren alright but somehow that's where I got off the bus, many years ago--several people have told me I should have at least gone on to Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand, and maybe I will, but right now thinking of re-reading his fun, imaginative debutThe Jewels of Aptor, published when he was 19, I think, also should dig up my copy of a chunky drugstore paperback, The Complete Nebula Award-Winning Fiction of Samuel R. Delany. which Amazon describes thusly:Combined edition of two novels and two short stories which won the Nebula Award. Babel - 17 (winner, 1966 Nebula, 1995 James Tiptree, Jr. Award, Classics; nominated, 1967 Hugo Award; 1975 Locus Poll Award, All-Time Best Novel (Place: 36)); A Fabulous, Formless Darkness (original title The Einstein Intersection) (winner, 1967 Nebula Award; nominated, 1968 Hugo Award); Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones (winner, 1969 Nebula Award, 1970 Hugo Award); Aye, and Gomorrah (winner, 1967 Nebula Award; nominated, 1968 Hugo Award) The cheapest (by far) copy they have of this is $24.03, but worth it, if condition is okay. They have a lot more by him.
― dow, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 21:24 (four months ago) link
that sounds like a good 'tracklist' for sure.
You might check out the Neveryon stuff, bronze age fantasy as vehicle for a dive into semiotics. I loved the two of them I read.
Triton is great also.
― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 21:27 (four months ago) link
I enjoyed the Neveryon books on rereading a couple of years ago. Reread The Einstein Intersection last year and understood it better than the first time I read it. Nova, Triton, and Stars in My Pocket are all good.
― The Mod Who Banned Liberty Valance (WmC), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 22:47 (four months ago) link
imo triton and stars in my pocket are the masterworks
― the late great, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 23:52 (four months ago) link
Thanks! I think I'm leaning to Stars In My Pocket next, though it may come down to what the library has available.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 April 2019 14:36 (four months ago) link