Batman carries on beginning in ... The Dark Knight

Watched the 1989 Burton Batman last night, for the first time in... I'd say at least ten years, maybe more like 15. And you know what? It looked quite good - Grissom's office for instance was beautiful - although much of Gotham was obviously either painted backdrops or models, they were beautifully done. But it still looked like an expensive theatre set rather than a movie.

Other brief thoughts...

The Batwing was... ridiculous.

Keaton has NO physical presence, and the idea that neither Knox nor Vale knows what the richest socialite / philanthropist in the city looked like was silly. His distractedness was good. Useless as a playboy figure, though.

Nicholson as the Joker... The fact that the sets looked like they were for a theatre production (presumably of Bugsy Malone) was fitting, because his performance was hammy as fuck, and straight out of a pantomime. Nowhere near Ledger. Not even fit to lace his boots. "Bob, don't forget, you're my... main... guhay" with all the weezing and the Cesar Romero suit. Rubbish. Not scary, not deranged. And what's with all the "I'm an artist until somebody dies" nonsense. Both Romero and Nicholson were old men when they played The Joker. That speaks volumes for the character's physicality. How high were his suit trousers? How thick his midriff?

And anyone complaining about narrative incoherence in TDK, well... good grief. None of Burton's first Batman makes any sense. Nothing is explained. There seems to be no narrative order. I don't really know how it fills two hours. And the fight sequences... don't exist, somehow.

Also, we see Batman right at the start, and then not again until nearly an hour in. And that rubber suit. Oh my. I'd love to know what Bale would have thought of wearing that.

The Batmobile is super cool, though.

But other than that... aside from talking about visual effects and performances and nonsensical narrative, there's NOTHING to talk about in Burton's Batman. No moral issues. No plot twists (or even holes; the narrative is that absent that picking holes in it is pointless; it's JUST a hole). No character development. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Quite good fun though. But in a barely evolved from Adam West kind of way. The set and costume design was better and there were no Biff Pow Blam cards, but other than that... it felt so campy. Admittedly I've never seen any of the Schumacher Batman films, and this might be fabulously dark and involving compared to them, but it's nothing compared to Nolan's interpretation.

^^^ This is why the second Burton Batman movie is so much better.

Recent comment about the first Batman film from a friend off-board: "Every line feels like a non-sequitur."

I love Keaton's Bruce Wayne though.

"My life is really... complex."

i always liked keaton as batman/wayne despite the movies not being all that great

Christian Bale is to Michael Keaton as Brandon Routh is to Christopher Reeve.

But but George Clooney

It's possible that he boasted superior nipples.

That analogy doesn't work because Brandon Routh is quite obviously aping Christopher Reeve and Christian Bale is quite obviously not aping Michael Keaton.

That's one way of looking at it. I see them as feckless younger men trying to sound adult.

I saw Keaton as a nearly middle-aged man of not imposing physique trying to play a kick-ass martial arts bat superhero, and failing.

Bale's appeal as Batman / Wayne is that he's quite juvenile, I thought.

"She was going to wait for me, Alfred."

Keaton's Batman/Wayne is pretty juvenile as well! "You weigh a little more than a hundred and eight." and the bit where he's trying to confess to Vicki Vale and mouths to himself "I'm Batman. I. am. Batman." haha.

I'm kinda lukewarm on Bale's Bruce Wayne but he's waaay better than Brandon Routh. (and by better, I mean hotter. but also better.)

re gyllenhaal as catwoman, oh please oh please be true true true

Bale's appeal as Batman / Wayne is that he's quite juvenile, I thought.

-- Scik Mouthy, Monday, August 4, 2008 3:52 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

otm, he has the kind of youthful arrogance and self-seriousness one would need to be batman. which is why he works as batman/bruce wayne for me.

the difference is that Bale as Wayne is basically Bale in American Psycho, which works great. Keaton as Wayne is more like, I dunno, Keaton in Mr. Mom.

The other difference is that Keaton comes across as being right to be running around as Batman and Bale seems to be totally bonkers insane and slowly realizing it as the movies progress.

This was 2/3s of a good movie (much better than B-Man Begins) and then stupid Two Face plot happens and then its completely cliche and awful for the last 45 or so minutes.

So yeah, a third piece. But there's more I'm still digging into regarding not only the film but its reception.

I see them as feckless younger men trying to sound adult.

However much it matters, Brandon Routh was a year older than Reeve was at the time their respective movies were released. (27 vs. 26) Keaton was seven years older than Bale was at the time of release of their first Batman films. (38 vs. 31)

(talking about the sonar cell phone thing in hong kong)
fox: it sends out a high frequency pulse, imaging the surroundings, like--
wayne: a submarine?
fox: right. like a submarine.

i'm not sure i see the funny in this either

right. like a submarine. not like a bat. batman. you're batman. bats do that too. not just submarines. you said submarine but you could very well have said bat. you're batman. like a bat.

Man, I keep seeing this thread grow bigger and bigger everyday and this goddamn movie still hasnt come out in theatres where I live and it makes me fucking mad. I'm growing tired of anticipating this movie. When will it finally be the 13th of august!

Yeah we cracked up at that, too, especially with the "what the hell is wrong with you" smirk Lucius gave Bruce during the last line of that exchange.

Hahaha, I totally didn't even get the bat/submarine thing! That's really funny! I took it as just like "...yeah, sure, if that's how you want to understand my ridiculously complicated science device."

I did too; the bat thing is, now it's been pointed out, very obvious and very funny.

So, uh, more rumors making their way around the interwebs:

Phillip Seymour Hoffman as Penguin, but Nolan says he has absolutely no interest in introducing that character into his movies.

Angelina Jolie has expressed interest in playing Catwoman. Could her star power trump Maggie?

Anyway, just thought I'd pass those along, apologies if they were mentioned and I missed 'em.

I think, given the success of TDK, that no one is going to force Nolan into doing something he doesn't want to do in a third film if (when) he makes one.

keep angelina jolie away from this

oh haha the bat/submarine thing can't believe i didn't see that. (actually yes i can).

funny tho.

Well it's the director's fault if so many people need it explained to them. Who cares about the lines though eh? Let's hire good actors and hope for the best while we spend 14 months getting the lighting right. /dingbod

wtf? Are you all taking the piss about the bat/submarine thing? It was so heavily signposted with Morgan Freeman's raised eyebrows the whole audience felt had to give a politely nervous snigger.

I missed it too. Wanna rewatch now just for that line.

Not taking the piss at all. The bat connection didn't jump out to me; I just saw it as Lucias being bemused at Wayne reducing seriously hi-end technology to a childlike analogy.

It's just occurred to me that Wayne's "like a submarine?" comment could have beena continuation of his half-hearted and jovial refusal to acknowledge his 'hobby' overtly to Lucias (as protection?) - like "for... base-jumping", etc.

i wonder if bale even got the joke

You guys are misremembering and misreading that scene. Wayne is about to say "like a bat" and give away the game when Fox says "like a submarine" and reminds him to keep his cool.

I was thinking there should have been a scene where Bruce Wayne wakes up with a sore throat, and Alfred says something like "Well, if you must insist on putting on that rough voice of yours". Then Alfred gets him some throat sweets.

Ahhhhh @ Oilyrags.

Surely we need at least one post on here today.

not if it's one of yours

Were you waiting to pounce?

batman + submarine lols: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_igqZWsNgwg

this movie sort of diminishes every time i think about it... i wish i could just go and see the IMAX segments again.

Jesus Christ, took me a day and a half of half-ass reading to get through this thread.

To draw quickly and haphazardly, if you'll forgive me (especially forgive me for reviving the Batman/Bush discussion now three weeks old or something):

Joker pushes Batman to the limits of his rules, and by the end of the film has forced Bats to break his rules. He doesn't exactly do it reluctantly, but when it's over he's remorseful and recognizes that he's done something wrong. He judges himself (why else effectively hold himself accountable by having the police hunt him?), Nolan judges him, and I think the audience is expected to judge him as well.

In other words: this is not a vindication of the means Batman/Bushco pursues. It's a repudiation. At best, as was said so astutely upthread, it's a sympathetic critique. Batman makes the wrong decision (and he deserves to be held to account) but there may not be a right one.

i honestly don't think this film's ideas are worth taking seriously or contemplating more than 45 minutes after the film ends....

seeing this tonight

I left the cinema just under 45 minutes ago, so there's still time:
1. war-on-terror is all the way through this like Brighton Rock. So much so that at times I forget I'm watching Batman, and think I'm watching live waterboarding. I wish films wouldn't be so heavy-handed about this kind of thing, and leave a bit of space for the ambiguities to fester
2. while we're at it, I don't want Batman's accomplices expressing horror at what he can do with his fancy cellphone gadget - they're working for *Batman*, for goodness' sake
3. I liked the look of it, but other than the chase (which otherwise I found a bit all-over-the-place) it wasn't as dark-looking as I'd hoped. I like my Gotham gothic
4. I really like the way they call him 'The Batman'
5. Heath Ledger is absolutely terrific in this. I love it when you can't tell who the actor is. Doesn't happen often, but this was one of those, like Brando in the Godfather