Rolling US Economy Into The Shitbin Thread

not to mention politically perilous

OK, that's a reasonable argument. But to me, it seems that in the current environment, government spending more on alternative energy is trying to push the stone of Sisyphus up a hill - whereas raising gas taxes is bulldozing the hill. If the cost of conventional energy sources (ie. carbon energy) is raised over a certain threshold, then the economics of alternative energy suddenly becomes compelling. Until that threshold is reached, alternative energy, barring some miraculous breakthrough, is going to remain a tiny niche, no matter how much money government pours into it.

Frankly I don't think the public is in a poor position to act rationally when making consumer choices.

arent you the dude that cant keep track of the balance in his own bank account?

― Lamp, Friday, November 21, 2008 2:59 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest

And I am a college graduate. Just call me exhibit A.

you may be right it just seems so silly on the face of it to me

hay guys gas is wicked expensive huh better get crackin developing some alternatives no - but you made it cost so much - huh what no ridiculous get back to work

besides at this point there seems to be widespread recognition that oils cheapness is completely unreliable an unsustainable

xp

If the cost of conventional energy sources (ie. carbon energy) is raised over a certain threshold, then the economics of alternative energy suddenly becomes compelling.

how does a floor on gas prices achieve this?

i am v. v. much in agreement with you that we've "allowed the industry and a national infrastructure to grow up around the assumption of cheap gas prices" but a price floor seems like a political and administrative nightmare to implement. easier to at the very least scrap existing subsidies in place for coal, oil and natural gas suppliers.

how does a floor on gas prices achieve this?

Seems self-evident to me, though perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question.

besides at this point there seems to be widespread recognition that oils cheapness is completely unreliable an unsustainable

I hope this is true. But I don't think this undermines the case for a price floor or higher gas taxes. If anything, if a political consensus can be achieved for higher gas taxes, that is going to accelerate the transition away from carbon fuels, which would be a good thing. There are lots of reasons to not want our economy to be dependent on carbon fuels besides the idea that they are going to get more expensive anyway. For instance, the environmental costs, or the national security risks of being dependent on energy from politically unstable regions.

a price floor seems like a political and administrative nightmare to implement. easier to at the very least scrap existing subsidies in place for coal, oil and natural gas suppliers

I haven't thought about the logistics, but it seems like the gasoline tax that we currently have is collected without too much of a bureaucratic nightmare. I agree totally about scrapping the subsidies.

i dont think a floor on gas prices addresses the larger point you were making about the economics of alternative enrgy i.e. gas prices are only a portion of what makes things like wind or solar power or hybrid cars or w/e nonviable currently.

and lol market fundamentalism but i'd rather see increased fuel tax than a price floor

I haven't thought about the logistics

I can sense the intelligence level of this conversation rising already.

we have a winner.

It's true gasoline is only part of the picture. In terms of foreign imports, I think it's probably the biggest part of the picture though - since we have large domestic supplies of natural gas and coal. So the issue is a bit different there. But I would not necessarily be against similar taxes on other carbon fuels as well.

Perhaps a simple tax would be easier to implement than a floor. Though I don't think the floor would be literally a floor on the price charged at the retail level - instead I would imagine that the tax level would be set quarterly or monthly based on projected retail prices over the following period in order to maintain the floor approximately.

So there would be one nationwide gas tax per gallon changed quarterly, so naturally the "floor" would fluctuate from day to day and state to state depending on local market conditions.

I really don't know how you could legislatively implement a floor and have it get through the courts. Which was the point of my sarcasm upthread O. Nate.

Taxes are way easier to implement. And easier to raise, I presume.

Can you even have a floor (or ceiling) in muni utilities?

lol PG&E

I don't think the implementation I sketched out would be too complicated to get passed. It seems workable to me. What's the weak link?

Not sure about utilities - though that's a different can of worms.

Meanwhile, in other news, the stock market likes Geithner:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/081121/business_us_markets_stocks.html

either that or the volatility is related to the day traders bingeing into the weekend

Yeah, that's true - a 6% up or down move on a given day is kind of just noise in this market.

given that hedge funds are not even 50% unwound yet, there's gonna be market volativity for awhile.

And I'd guess this rally is based on hope (i.e. new kid on block) given the horrible fundamentals and lagging indicators that we've been seeing.

i bought more berkshire

― bnw, Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:59 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i win!

Actually the single Hummer driver would suffer less because his vehicle would only be used to visit strip clubs and football games.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, November 21, 2008 11:02 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this dude seems like a bro we should invite him to 77

we have a winner.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Friday, November 21, 2008 2:44 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

we have a weiner

I don't think the implementation I sketched out would be too complicated to get passed. It seems workable to me. What's the weak link?

― o. nate, Friday, November 21, 2008 3:56 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

That we've already had (historically/record-) high gas prices this year?

And I guess you're kind of fucked if gas goes up and doesn't even ever go down to $2.25 or whatever a gallon again

drudge headline by icanhascheezburger.com

http://i36.tinypic.com/1zqbl3c.jpg

the main reason I think an enforced floor for gas prices would be a failure is because any govt intervention regarding fuel prices is going to wind up having an exception for diesel. If the intention is to actually reduce per capita carbon footprint in the most effective way possible without trying to fuck with the price of milk and eggs, then any legislation should stick to emissions standards for passenger (commuter) automotives and a progressive tax on the fuels used by same. White collar internet fags should be reminded that some motor vehicles are actually part of the industrial base.

http://www.treehugger.com/2008-01-23_093749-TreeHugger-glass-house.jpg

white collar internet fags at home

Dimitri Martin: "There is an old saying, 'people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.' Throwing stones is just bad behavior. It should be, 'no stone throwing regardless of housing situation.' Unless you were trapped in a glass house, then by all means, if you have a stone, use it. So really its, 'only people in glass houses should throw stones. If they are trapped inside.'"

yeah don't mess with diesel pls it's still more expensive tho if you do i'll just put wesson or kerosene or fuel oil or whatever in mine. kthx.

I am definitely trapped inside a glass house thanks to my not owning a car and having a govt contractor job that requires me to be in an office on the internet

but thanks for clearing that up irony pedant squad

the house IS carbon neutral. i read that as a shot at me tbh

I am definitely trapped inside a glass house thanks to my not owning a car and having a govt contractor job that requires me to be in an office on the internet

I don't know if you're kidding or what.

No you don't.

http://media.economist.com/images/20081122/CUS484.gif

no Demetri Martin quoting til we hit bottom

ha yes ty morbs

I am looking forward to the Broadway musical version of this economic meltdown.

people in stone houses shouldn't throw glass cause like wtf dogg u put up some impenetrable walls and then u gonna throw vases around and shit well there's no helpin you now boss cause u in a STONE HOUSE motherfucker what u want me to do

u lifted

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/europe/7744355.stm

no Demetri Martin R. Kelly quoting til we hit bottom

― Dr Morbius, Saturday, November 22, 2008 11:44 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=arEE1iClqDrk

Another $8 trillion? Sure, throw it on the fire. Rooms a bit chilly, ain't it?

Treasury Sec. Paulson bets all-in on Citigroup with Bush's approval. In about 8 months this will look as stupid as most of Bush's big bets to date, including $150 million for A-Rod.

$150 million for A-Rod was worth it.

Not when the franchise had no other players around him. But I digress...

re: citigroup have you guys read this: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/11/le-citi-toujour.html?

u guys come on bush was not even a decision maker at the rangers - guy owned like 1.3%

also long gone by a-rod contract, no?
was at the helm when sosa traded tho