Batman carries on beginning in ... The Dark Knight

no, of course. criticism pro or con isn't really about changing minds anyway, right? just a chance to talk about something.

(i've had my mind changed by criticism before, probably -- in that it maybe gave me a new way of looking at or thinking about something. but more often i can enjoy good criticism of something, like ned's thoughts about this movie, even if i don't share the critic's opinion of the work itself.)

based on the review excerpts you posted before you even saw the film i think your mind was halfway made up before you went into this thing, morbs.

i don't get all that anyway, esp since people can read into shit like this exactly what they want to read. don't even get me started on the dude i overheard talking about how hellboy 2 was probably "john mccain's favorite film".

like john mccain even saw the first hellboy

no, of course. criticism pro or con isn't really about changing minds anyway, right? just a chance to talk about something.

yeah. we'd probably have to get obnoxiously theoretical to really talk about this well, but i think, in short, good criticism simply brings your attention to something you didn't notice on your own. makes it possible to "see" something you couldn't see before. how this affects your subjective feelings about the movie is something different and maybe only related in an indirect way. (like if someone reads a movie as marxist it could either turn you off or turn you on.)

I know when I saw Black Hawn Down, and then learned the truth about the real life counterparts portrayed in the movie, it ruined my initial assessment of the movie

so the new rumor is that Maggie Gyllenhall will be catwoman in the next film. makes total sense (9 lives lolz) particularly since her and Eckhardt are both under contract for two films.

http://www.hollywood-newsroom.com/rumors/angelina-jolie-is-not-catwoman-in-batman-3-its-maggie-gyllenhaal/

Who said that Rachel didn't die? Oh snap.

i would find that easier to believe if rachel at any point demonstrated an affinity for cats, right before her 'death' in TDK she came into physical contact w/ a cat and the explosion resulted in her absorbing cat powers/thinking

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Pages/confirmbookmark.jsp?action=bookmark&boardid=40&threadid=50130&messageid=1804

Ahem.

*or* right before her 'death'

What started this whole "Catwoman has cat powers" thing? I've heard others confused by this before, but the only instance of this I can remember of this happening was that Birds of Prey TV series. I don't think she had any powers in the previous films or TV series. Even in Batman Returns, it's not like she actually has nine lives.

the Catwoman is supposed to be Selina Kyle, isn't she?

Mostly. Like nearly all comics continuity, there are exceptions.

welp, i just bought the Watchmen graphic novel, so I'll have my hands full for a while....

besides, you got the rumor wrong. It's Jake that is going to be Catwoman.

flipside was in this

Even in Batman Returns, it's not like she actually has nine lives.

I think maybe you should rewatch Batman Returns because she rather emphatically has nine lives in it.

saw it for the second time today, still really good, and seemed better constructed and less murky this time... which i guess means it's pretty clunky and murky if it takes two viewings to clear up.

it struck me that there are a lot of subtle jokes in it, the script could have been played for laffs much more -- i was the only one that chuckled out loud at this:

(talking about the sonar cell phone thing in hong kong)
fox: it sends out a high frequency pulse, imaging the surroundings, like--
wayne: a submarine?
fox: right. like a submarine.

Watched the 1989 Burton Batman last night, for the first time in... I'd say at least ten years, maybe more like 15. And you know what? It looked quite good - Grissom's office for instance was beautiful - although much of Gotham was obviously either painted backdrops or models, they were beautifully done. But it still looked like an expensive theatre set rather than a movie.

Other brief thoughts...

The Batwing was... ridiculous.

Keaton has NO physical presence, and the idea that neither Knox nor Vale knows what the richest socialite / philanthropist in the city looked like was silly. His distractedness was good. Useless as a playboy figure, though.

Nicholson as the Joker... The fact that the sets looked like they were for a theatre production (presumably of Bugsy Malone) was fitting, because his performance was hammy as fuck, and straight out of a pantomime. Nowhere near Ledger. Not even fit to lace his boots. "Bob, don't forget, you're my... main... guhay" with all the weezing and the Cesar Romero suit. Rubbish. Not scary, not deranged. And what's with all the "I'm an artist until somebody dies" nonsense. Both Romero and Nicholson were old men when they played The Joker. That speaks volumes for the character's physicality. How high were his suit trousers? How thick his midriff?

And anyone complaining about narrative incoherence in TDK, well... good grief. None of Burton's first Batman makes any sense. Nothing is explained. There seems to be no narrative order. I don't really know how it fills two hours. And the fight sequences... don't exist, somehow.

Also, we see Batman right at the start, and then not again until nearly an hour in. And that rubber suit. Oh my. I'd love to know what Bale would have thought of wearing that.

The Batmobile is super cool, though.

But other than that... aside from talking about visual effects and performances and nonsensical narrative, there's NOTHING to talk about in Burton's Batman. No moral issues. No plot twists (or even holes; the narrative is that absent that picking holes in it is pointless; it's JUST a hole). No character development. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Quite good fun though. But in a barely evolved from Adam West kind of way. The set and costume design was better and there were no Biff Pow Blam cards, but other than that... it felt so campy. Admittedly I've never seen any of the Schumacher Batman films, and this might be fabulously dark and involving compared to them, but it's nothing compared to Nolan's interpretation.

^^^ This is why the second Burton Batman movie is so much better.

Recent comment about the first Batman film from a friend off-board: "Every line feels like a non-sequitur."

I love Keaton's Bruce Wayne though.

"My life is really... complex."

i always liked keaton as batman/wayne despite the movies not being all that great

Christian Bale is to Michael Keaton as Brandon Routh is to Christopher Reeve.

But but George Clooney

It's possible that he boasted superior nipples.

That analogy doesn't work because Brandon Routh is quite obviously aping Christopher Reeve and Christian Bale is quite obviously not aping Michael Keaton.

That's one way of looking at it. I see them as feckless younger men trying to sound adult.

I saw Keaton as a nearly middle-aged man of not imposing physique trying to play a kick-ass martial arts bat superhero, and failing.

Bale's appeal as Batman / Wayne is that he's quite juvenile, I thought.

"She was going to wait for me, Alfred."

Keaton's Batman/Wayne is pretty juvenile as well! "You weigh a little more than a hundred and eight." and the bit where he's trying to confess to Vicki Vale and mouths to himself "I'm Batman. I. am. Batman." haha.

I'm kinda lukewarm on Bale's Bruce Wayne but he's waaay better than Brandon Routh. (and by better, I mean hotter. but also better.)

re gyllenhaal as catwoman, oh please oh please be true true true

Bale's appeal as Batman / Wayne is that he's quite juvenile, I thought.

-- Scik Mouthy, Monday, August 4, 2008 3:52 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

otm, he has the kind of youthful arrogance and self-seriousness one would need to be batman. which is why he works as batman/bruce wayne for me.

the difference is that Bale as Wayne is basically Bale in American Psycho, which works great. Keaton as Wayne is more like, I dunno, Keaton in Mr. Mom.

The other difference is that Keaton comes across as being right to be running around as Batman and Bale seems to be totally bonkers insane and slowly realizing it as the movies progress.

This was 2/3s of a good movie (much better than B-Man Begins) and then stupid Two Face plot happens and then its completely cliche and awful for the last 45 or so minutes.

So yeah, a third piece. But there's more I'm still digging into regarding not only the film but its reception.

I see them as feckless younger men trying to sound adult.

However much it matters, Brandon Routh was a year older than Reeve was at the time their respective movies were released. (27 vs. 26) Keaton was seven years older than Bale was at the time of release of their first Batman films. (38 vs. 31)

(talking about the sonar cell phone thing in hong kong)
fox: it sends out a high frequency pulse, imaging the surroundings, like--
wayne: a submarine?
fox: right. like a submarine.

i'm not sure i see the funny in this either

right. like a submarine. not like a bat. batman. you're batman. bats do that too. not just submarines. you said submarine but you could very well have said bat. you're batman. like a bat.

Man, I keep seeing this thread grow bigger and bigger everyday and this goddamn movie still hasnt come out in theatres where I live and it makes me fucking mad. I'm growing tired of anticipating this movie. When will it finally be the 13th of august!

Yeah we cracked up at that, too, especially with the "what the hell is wrong with you" smirk Lucius gave Bruce during the last line of that exchange.

Hahaha, I totally didn't even get the bat/submarine thing! That's really funny! I took it as just like "...yeah, sure, if that's how you want to understand my ridiculously complicated science device."

I did too; the bat thing is, now it's been pointed out, very obvious and very funny.

So, uh, more rumors making their way around the interwebs:

Phillip Seymour Hoffman as Penguin, but Nolan says he has absolutely no interest in introducing that character into his movies.

Angelina Jolie has expressed interest in playing Catwoman. Could her star power trump Maggie?

Anyway, just thought I'd pass those along, apologies if they were mentioned and I missed 'em.

I think, given the success of TDK, that no one is going to force Nolan into doing something he doesn't want to do in a third film if (when) he makes one.