How good is 'American Boy' by Estelle?

Also Adele is being sold as an 'mmmmmm look authenticity' kind of artist. But hey if you want to turn the tables and go "actually its YOU that's being racist" by all means do so but bear in mind when people do this on hip-hop threads then people like Ethan are tearing them a new arsehole within a few posts.

Don't think anyone's gonna get Captain-Save-A-Minority over Estelle, tbh.

(Haha I haven't actually heard the Estelle single, knowingly, I'm more interested in attacking the argument than defending Estelle).

Considering there's, what, three of these soul musicians actually around at the moment, and that the black population of Britian is 2% (actually probably less nowadays, considering immigration from Eastern Europe)... the maths aren't really bared out here.

i don't think adele is being sold as "black" or even tbh "soul" that much. winehouse is, and joss stone was. i don't think the music industry, for all its sins, is "telling me (her) is (her) music".

it's an hard question because it's not just about "the industry" but the media too. i don't think estelle's talking about grime or other (black) scenes that grow up under the radar of the mainstream media, and which the industry has mishandled; but about, say, jamelia, who go to the public on a morning tv/music video/radio one playlist basis.

I don't think "American Boy" is quite as good as it would like to be - it's OK but not earth shattering - but nonetheless I think Estelle's OTM.

Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings were doing the whole Amy/Adele/Duffy-type thing - only 10 x power of a million times better. Of course, being black and past her teenage years, no one cared. Ditto, for that matter, and adding a decade, Beverley Knight.

Radio 1 caves in to David Cameron's threats and segregates all black music content into the 1Xtra ghetto.

Amy, Adele, Joss and Duffy - ideal fodder for middle-aged, white, pederastic and racist record company executives only interested in actual British black music if it can be made to look and sound as white as possible (Corinne B-R, Gabrielle etc. with Jamelia as possible exception).

Oh, and weather proferred as feeble excuse (how can they tell?) for lack of Glastonbury ticket action, alternating with booking of Jay-Z for Glastonbury as a strawman (is he headlining all three nights? The Reading Festival wasn't exactly bereft of crowd the night Public Enemy headlined) with implicit racist subtext though in the case of typical 2008 Glastonbury goer demographic (i.e. the picnic lunch, sensible portable IKEA table, tents the size of small houses, baby-bearing/waving ones) this might not be too far wrong.

(Hasn't Beverley Knight actually sold a truckload of records though?)

i don't think the music industry, for all its sins, is "telling me (her) is (her) music".

Well no, Adele isn't aimed at her, it's aimed at the Radio 2 listening public, but when the message is that loud I'm assuming she can't help overhearing.

BK a mediocre singles career but appeared to keep releasing records anyway:

33 Beverley Knight Flavour Of The Old School Oct 1995 Notes
21 Beverley Knight featuring Redman Made It Back May 1998 Notes
40 Beverley Knight Rewind (Find A Way) Aug 1998
19 Beverley Knight featuring Redman Made It Back 99 Apr 1999 Notes
14 Beverley Knight Greatest Day Jul 1999
31 Beverley Knight Sista Sista Dec 1999
17 Beverley Knight Get Up Nov 2001
10 Beverley Knight Shoulda Woulda Coulda Mar 2002
27 Beverley Knight Gold Jul 2002
9 Beverley Knight Come As You Are Jul 2004
31 Beverley Knight Not Too Late For Love Oct 2004
16 Beverley Knight Keep This Fire Burning Mar 2005
16 Beverley Knight Piece Of My Heart Mar 2006

Maybe I'm fooled by longevity here - the albums have done reasonably well though but not Adele level (let alone elephant-in-room Leona here who is something of a special case).

Well, Leona comes under the as-white-as-can-be-made category; no doubt her youth and half-caste status were more appealing to X-Factor viewers than the black woman who sang a million times better but was twice her age and heavier and we can't have that in our sparkling "new" "pop" age.

(also, at a tangent, incipient racism of ITV viewers attempting on a weekly basis to get rid of sole non-injured black contestant in Dancing On Ice and you could tell what the judges were thinking but dared not say)

half-caste status

FFS.

This is going to get worse before it gets better.

Half black Guyanese, half white Welsh, I think fairly qualifies as "half caste status."

http://music.guardian.co.uk/urban/story/0,,2268507,00.html

lawls i see alex 'the lex' macpherson agrees with estelle.

There was a certain irony in the announcement of the new No 1 single on Sunday. Replacing Duffy's Mercy at the top was American Boy by Estelle. Replacing a song by a singer groomed and promoted as bringing back "proper soul" was one by a singer from Britain's urban scene, one whose definition of soul is rather different from that of the people who have worked hard to make stars of Duffy and her fellow Britsoul junior diva, Adele.

where's the irony? if duffy is being sold as 'proper soul' (which is arguable), why is it 'ironic' that estelle disagrees? the lex isn't brave enough to say 'estelle = black', he says she's 'urban' whatever the fuck that means; but he's also implying that the true definition of soul belongs to black/urban folk. this is profoundly mojo magazine-y, 'natural rhythm'-type BS.

and the estelle quote in full is:

As a black person, I'm like: you're telling ME this is MY music? Fuck that! They keep trying to tell me in the media what soul music is and I'm like, we KNOW what soul music is, stop fucking around with us! You're taking the piss out of every black person in the country!

again, is duffy really being sold as 'black'? im amazed that poptimist lex is buying into this stuff rly -- the point about the music industry holding down black talent is totally separate from this.

and the post-'1980' story i can believe -- but the heavily promoted and indeed ubiquitous '1980' still only got to number 14 in the charts, and the follow-up to number 15. i don't know whose fault that is, but the story is entirely told from estelle's POV. and indeed, her current record label's POV.

also:

"If you think about where I'm from, I'm not supposed to be singing in the first place," she says. "I'm not supposed to be alive right now. We're all supposed to be in jail or killing each other. I refuse to believe that."

this in conjunction with 'life is heaven in the US' -- seriously?

also im gonna be bitchy but:

That No 1 single, American Boy, is a deliciously breezy house strut about the joys of a blossoming cross-cultural relationship. It began life as a joke, as Estelle and Will.i.am attempted to introduce Legend to the joys of dance music.

dude.

Dingbod and Princess Michael of Kent in agreement shocker.

(Dom OTM)

But that's just Farringdon Gang default setting reaction to black music, isn't it? Black people are somehow "exotic" or "exciting". Apparently when my relatives from Calabria first came to this country on holiday, they'd seek out black people to have their photograph taken with, in the same way tourists now do with red phone boxes or bobbies on the beat, because they'd never seen them before and they were worthy of standing next to with an awkward smile on their faces. The Guardian's urban music department seemingly have a lot in common with Zio Pietro.

xp

Kinda interested to know where the Welsh figure in the caste system though.

"Dalit" kinda sounds like a Welsh word.

Half-caste (or half-cast) is a term used to describe people of mixed race or ethnicity. Caste comes from the Latin castus, meaning pure, and the derivative Portuguese and Spanish casta, meaning race. The term originates from the Indian caste system, where a person of 'lesser' or half-caste would be deemed to be of a 'lower class.' While the origins of the term are derogatory, its usage has evolved to give it the more objective meaning described above.

Half caste is a term used in the United Kingdom and other English-speaking parts of the world. An example is a child of black African and white European parentage. The term mulatto (from the Spanish "Mulato") has also been used for this particular mixture. Both terms are considered impolite and potentially offensive in the U.S., as the words have been used pejoratively in the past to ostracise and isolate the offspring of such unions. For example, "children of the plantation" (the children of African-American slaves and their European-American masters in the U.S. Southern states) were not accepted as heirs, and in most cases, the relationship was never acknowledged, and "half-caste" conveyed the deliberate exclusion.

So you're not going to apologise for throwing around racist terms then?

ignoring that part of MC's post: omg attractive young woman wins out over older, less attractive one in pop contest.

lols at 'million times better' too. come on.

xpost

i do think it's irresponsible writing, totally uncritical. also, obviously, cloying -- "americans want to see central london but i'll take them to holloway road" -- seriously, how can you not zing that?

Americans need to see the GRITTY URBAN DEPRIVED areas of Britain (where houses start at £250,000, 12 times the average British salary)

Matt - you might want to read what I posted, in particular the last sentence of the first paragraph of my last post, and then perhaps discuss the issues I actually raised, instead of throwing around potentially slanderous accusations at me.

I read what you said, and I don't accept that the usage of the term has become "objective", I don't accept that it is no longer racially-charged or used in a derogatory way.

I know full well the point you were trying to make but don't undermine it with your own language.

Well I could just have said "shut up you pompous little prick" but while admittedly more direct it doesn't resonate as substantially.

You really couldn't fucking make this up.

Hmm, not really going to get very far with this thread, am I? It's sort of like Clare Short Numberwang around here. Never mind, there are other threads available...

i'm still wrapping my head around the apparent fact that Estelle had to leave the UK in order to have a #1 single here. now even without Kanye's name attached to it, 'American Boy' is lighter than '1980's drama and that alone may have been enough to bump it higher up the chart but if the US can promote British (black) artists better even in the UK then that's fucked, and seems a step backwards from the days of '21 Seconds' and 'Fill Me In'.

if the US can promote British (black) artists better even in the UK then that's fucked

Is this even remotely true? Bloc Party, T2, Wiley... you think any of these acts, all top 10ers over here, would amount to shit if they went to America permanently?

21 Seconds and Fill Me In had the advantage of coming off the back of a booming scene the industry knew there was a market for - may yet happen with bassline as well. It's a slightly different situation.

Wait Wiley in the Top 10 when did that happen?!

It's upcoming. "Wearing My Rolex" will be top 5, trust me.

Is this even remotely true? Bloc Party, T2, Wiley... you think any of these acts, all top 10ers over here, would amount to shit if they went to America permanently?

not what i mean. i don't actually know the answer to why 'American Boy' is as successful as it is. Estelle doesn't appear to either.

i wonder if something the labels overlook is how you could hear the Adele, Duffy, maybe even Cilmi songs for the first time without knowing who they were and assume they were black vocalists, taking an interest on the basis of liking the songs, even encouraged by their apparent 'authenticity' (the sound of the music and the voices) or adherence to tradition - all before seeing the videos, press coverage etc. how the listener's attitude changes (if at all - and i think often it doesn't) thereafter is the key thing. but the first part suggests the appeal of black soul artists here hasn't actually gone away. even a female equivalent of Lemar would be nice to see (boring as his own brand of pop-soul may be to those who don't think he's fit) but much harder to achieve (and hard to explain without sounding sexist rather than racist).

"What Remi Nicole's failure to top the charts tells us about race in the UK"

f the US can promote British (black) artists better even in the UK then that's fucked

bit of a stretch on the basis of one record innit? especially when the media pitch, as in the guardian, is "the US can promote British (black) artists better even in the UK"!

No the point the article is making is the US knows how to promote black artists, domestically and internationally, better than the UK does, which is pretty unarguable surely. The holes in the point, really are:

- putting KANYE WEST on the track is kind of route-one to international success. Admittedly that means her US label saw the potential when maybe the UK didn't.

- Estelle is pretty internationalist in her appeal anyway, more than, say a British MC.

(Incidentally according to the Lex there's a bit in the interview that he left out, when Estelle goes on about how much she loves Amy Winehouse, about how she totally fits into her definition of 'soul' etc etc. Which is kind of a big omission IMO).

No the point the article is making is the US knows how to promote black artists, domestically and internationally, better than the UK does, which is pretty unarguable surely.

the US knows how to promote black american artists domestically, but actually not that well over here!

the article is saying that the UK industry can't promote black british artists, but that the US one can.

it's true in the specific case of estelle -- but she's working in a US idiom. would a US label do better with, say, a grime or UK hip-hop act?

the US knows how to promote black american artists domestically, but actually not that well over here!

don't think that's true, they (the artists as much as the label) can't be bothered to put as much into the market here (and why should they when it's not so big a market) - in any case there are countless US artists massive here

yeah that's sort of what i mean i guess -- they seem to do well without that much coverage. whereas estelle's pitch is "i have the might of a US label behind me."

"without that much coverage"

Who do you mean? All the big-selling black American artists I can think of are getting shedloads of coverage over here. The Graun and NME are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Nb - I also think the US wouldn't do that well at flogging eg Kano to the UK market, but they might do a better job than over here. I think the assumption over here WRT a lot of black music is "only black people will buy this and that's not a big enough market". It's less institutional racism and more a lack of faith in crossover appeal that could apply to whole swathes of music being made in this country.

remember that show with Fatman Scoop signing up that quintet of Brits? whatever happened to them?

Who do you mean? All the big-selling black American artists I can think of are getting shedloads of coverage over here. The Graun and NME are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

haha that might be true. i sort of live in an ivory tower a bit. still don't feel black american artists are as much on the PR treadmill but yeh ok.

I think the assumption over here WRT a lot of black music is "only black people will buy this and that's not a big enough market".

welllll... i'm saying that 'black music' is a useless category. black US rnb has been massive here forever.

but black british 'street' music -- the nuum -- comes and goes, but when it's doing well, it isn't just among a black audience; and because of the peculiar nature of british pop, it's again hard to call it 'black music' in the way that US rnb is conventionally called that*: that rests on the same assumption that black british musicians are umbilically linked to black american styles.

i can believe what estelle's saying about the failings of the UK industry and media, but looking at the jamelia farrago -- was that because they didn't have faith in her ability to crossover? i don't know what it was tbh.

*not exactly unproblematic

what Jamelia farrago?

her last LP was a perceived commercial failure, no?

so it would seem - still two top ten hits out of it tho. odd (esp. as she's one of the artists 'accused' of having veered from rnb-derived style towards various other areas of pop)

Jamelia's been dropped. The official story is disagreements over marketing. If she can't do it, despite the fact that the press seem to love her, you can't really blame the industry for canning the likes of Terri Walker, Keisha White, Alesha and Shaznay.

Also, The US labels aren't that good themselves at selling black artists that attempt to do something different from the norms - re complete bollocksing of Amerie and Kelis, both of whom are way bigger in the UK than in the US, and both of whom are without record contracts.

I've never heard of Estelle cuz I'm American but I LOVE this song!! there's really nothing wrong with it, at all...even Kanye comes off as charming and kind of not that obnoxious...

also, Rev: I really like "Independent" by Will.i.am but come on!!! no way...

yeah this song is wicked.

i'm not even going to get involved in the other argument going on in this thread. "half-caste" wtf.

its ok.

decent enough tasteful soulful house.

her voice is quite weak but she carries the tune. almost becomes kanyes tune as he occupies quite a bit of space on the song but hey good for her. shes doing well.

her band are shit hot though - saw them at the jazz cafe last year. all imported from the US via john legend.

as far as her selling to the US market, its an easier sell than kano or dizzee or whoever as shes a singer now, not a rapper. no uk rapper is really going to make a mark in the states. but if youre omar, or d influence or soul II soul or whoever, you can do alright. and they have done.

new album is REALLY good. so relaxed and confident. way better than i was expecting after the long time away

new album is REALLY good. granted i never paid much attention to her beyond the hits in the past, but this is impressing me.

yeah i was very taken with it on one listen. lots of intriguing choices in the first half but she's good at the more comfort blanket stuff towards the end as well

I really tried to get people into "Make Her Say (Beat It Up)" last year. THE DRUMS ARE AMAZE. Maybe now that the album's out more people will pay attention to it.

still in 2015 when i hear american boy i have to remind myself that it's not rachel stevens

never occurred to me to seek out other stuff by the actual singer, y because i am a fewl

some dude, did you begin your post with the exact wording lex used in his post two years prior on purpose? because if not, lol

lol

sad the album version of "make her say" isn't the MAKE MY PUSSY SAY vers

still in 2015 when i hear american boy i have to remind myself that it's not rachel stevens

never occurred to me to seek out other stuff by the actual singer, y because i am a fewl

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:30 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wtf tracer were you not familiar with "1980" (and her first album)? an actual minor uk hit and still the best thing she's ever done

I really liked "1980" back in the day and thought the first album was good, but the second album was a disappointment because she switched from rapping to singing, and I don't think she's particularly good or memorable as a singer. Is the third album more of the same?

sadly that is precisely what i intended to convey in my previous post lex!! years_of_missing_out_emoticon.jpg

ogmor posted this, from your friends over in the post-fahey takoma thread, this is really gorgeous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhvFg64_Gis&feature=youtu.be

her last album was so much better than "American Girl"

her theme song for the Carton Network series We Bare Bears is also so much better than "American Girl"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpfix3i6Q0o

or "American Boy," whatever, fuck that song

new album, LOVERS ROCK, out next month.

"In comparison to those of her formative years, Lover’s Rock is Estelle’s most personal album to date, as she centers in on her West Indian roots with a full-fledged reggae album. She has collaborated with esteemed Jamaican producer Supa Dups [Drake, Beenie Man], Reefa [Lil Wayne], Jerry Wonda [Wyclef Jean], Harmony Samuels [Jennifer Lopez, Ariana Grande] and more. In the forthcoming LP, Estelle has assured to fuse her signature R&B and hip-hop sound while paying homage to her Grenadian roots as she not only concentrates in reggae, but also embraces Afro-beats and Soca music."

i like the duet with luke james that came out last week:
https://soundcloud.com/estelleofficial/so-easy-feat-luke-james

her records are always good, can't wait for this one

i always loved this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSRE8aTy5GE

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/641298429/first-listen-estelle-lovers-rock

maleek berry is on this record! that's so cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19SphXx3Eq8

damn

that anita baker interpolation

that song w maleek berry is awesome

the first two minutes of "Better" are phenomenal, wish it stayed in that zone the whole way, excited to hear this full album though

She sings "Take me to New York I'd like to See LA" but LA is nowhere near so she wont be able to see it from there.

they're separated by a semicolon

😌

It's a perfect lyric coming from someone idealizing the U.S. without having been there, and imagining that cities are a short hop apart.

New York and Los Angeles are two of the most iconic American cities, although the former is in New York on the East Coast and the latter in California on the West Coast, making travel between them hard. Both are also known for being notoriously expensive. However, with a net worth of $3 million USD, Estelle can certainly handle the costs.

this record is such a delight. for weeks now it's been my go-to whenever I'm not sure what to listen to next

yes!!

I posted about this song on another thread (help me identify a song thread). I somehow missed when this came out and hear it everywhere in the last year, but like, faintly in the background. And I knew I loved the song but had no clue who sang it. In the back of my mind, I always had a tickle, "this better not be fucking Kanye on this."

very good album, yes