― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:11 (eighteen years ago) link
Or maybe I shd say: what CAN make Supes work - as Showcase shows, he also works as an amped-up sitcom character.
― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:24 (eighteen years ago) link
It's all very well to say that the great appeal of Superman is that he was fun and he enjoyed his power and there was all this goofiness etc, and that's why he appealed to the kids BUT do you think that if Superman became fun again and etc and so on, the kids would be rushing to the shops to buy Superman comics?
Two things - The cross-publisher Uncle Bennian caveat was imposed because it worked - whiny indecisive Peter Parker was what the kids wanted. Teen angst fantasy was more popular than innocent-enjoyment-of-superpowers fantasy. And in the last couple of decades, what have the big sellers been? Dark Knight, Watchmen, Spawn, Sandman - the 'gritty' stuff.
The other thing is, we could argue about whether the chicken or the egg came first with those changes, whether the stories changed to attract the new audience or the audience changed because of the new stories, but neither one is going to fit back into the shell. The medium isn't suddenly going to appeal to kids again (and the distribution channels won't suddenly change), so even if 'the kids' out there would much prefer stories about happy winking Superman to stories about angsty Alex-Rossy Superman, they're not going into a comics shop, and they're not interested in comics as such.
So when you/we talk about what Superman SHOULD be (and what comics SHOULD be) - what does this really mean? That stories like this get to the heart of the appeal of comics (to who?) That they exemplify the strengths of the form? That Superman wouldn't have been such a hit _then_ if he was written like Superman _now_? (Making Superman stories different from other stories... how exactly?) That the iconic power of Superman rests on this early incarnation, perhaps?
― Ray (Ray), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ray (Ray), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:45 (eighteen years ago) link
"This (goofiness, enjoying power, winking) is what makes Superman great", to ME, I should cop to.Obviously, this very stuff (and the perception of its perpetuity) is exactly why Superman has fallen out of favour since at least the mid-Sixties, while the angst of Spider-Man and Hulk, the grim solitude/vengeance of Batman/Punisher, and sheer violence/male hormonalism of Wolverine have eclipsed him.
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 17:49 (eighteen years ago) link
Is this so true, though? Batman fans don't seem all that outraged about Harley Quinn. When Marvel makes the X-Men and Bullseye start dressing like they did in the movies, nobody really freaks out. I think there are more examples from the Bruce Timm Batman/Superman/Justice League cartoons too, but I can't think of any right now. Wikipedia claims that Mr. Freeze's current origin comes from the cartoon, but I don't know if that's true. I also find a claim that Gotham Central's Renee Montoya is from the Batman cartoon.
― The Yellow Kid, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 21:08 (eighteen years ago) link
To me, Superman is like ABBA; the moment when he rips open his shirt to reveal the "S" being the equivalent of the piano line from the beginning of "Dancing Queen"; a signal telling that you have just arrived into this amazing wonderland of illusion and from now on anything can happen. Both of them are so innocent in essence (and I believe the essence of Superman goes far beyond from being an political american icon or something like that) it almost breaks my heart whenever I see the rest of the world turning away from them.
One thing that amazes me from the both of them is how they inspire such great work from such talented people. I'm thinking about the superb posts Marcello Carlin wrote about ABBA and stuff like "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?". Both of them made me feel like they were trying to recapture some of the innocence they lost at some point but the characters/music still keep.
― iodine (iodine), Thursday, 2 February 2006 04:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― iodine (iodine), Thursday, 2 February 2006 04:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― iodine (iodine), Thursday, 2 February 2006 04:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 16:53 (seventeen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link
― barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:27 (seventeen years ago) link
Other heroes are really only pretending: Peter Parker plays Spider-Man; Bruce Wayne plays Batman. For Superman, it’s mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent that’s the disguise – the thing he aspires to, the thing he can never be. He really is that hero, and he’ll never be one of us
― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:28 (seventeen years ago) link
Forgot to mention that I've never followed the Superman comics ever, until the last few months. I'm sure Huk can remember like 8 billion Superman villains, but, to this mostly non-Superfan, Brainiac stands out as his only really classic major/serious nemesis, outside of Luthor. And of course my entire comment is nothing but pedantic nerdliness, and totally unnecessary since I do mostly agree with Gaiman's point.
― barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link
xpost
No, no, it's Luthor and Brainiac and that's it.
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link
I mean, everybody else is pretty one-note (though some are awesome, but hardly iconic): Parasite, Toyman, Prankster, Terra-Man, Vartox (awesome), Titano (awesome), Zod (never as awesome in the comics as Terrence Stamp was--except one comic, but I can't say which).If you wanna get down to it, Superman's biggest, most iconic and enduring antagonist is Lois Lane, AMIRITE???
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:55 (seventeen years ago) link
On the other hand, Byrne's villains are generally craptastic whatever comic he's writing, so maybe it's all his fault.
― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link
mr mxyzptlk! bizarro (a word that has steadily crept into the language)! terence stamp!
i suppose gaiman means that luthor is the only superman villain that the gen pub might've heard of - but then only cos of the movies, tv etc
these days in the comics, batman seems to be superman's biggest nemesis - is this a post-Dark Knight trope? i think so
superman is classic because he is the FIRST ie he is elvis (who, i think elaine dundy in her bk abt elvis and his ma sez, was TOTALLY into Captain Marvel comics - Captain Marvel was modelled on Fred MacMurray - if you kinda hook all that up, well done!)
― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:00 (seventeen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link
I know all the villains who popped up in the cartoons and movies, like Bizarro and Mxyzptlk and the Phantom Zone fellas, but those first two are pretty damn goofy and harmless seeming, and with the latter, well, I've never known if Zod was actually in the comic or a Hollywood original. And, man, those movies can screw you up when you're a DC novice. As a kid I never got why Luthor was some corny used car salesman type in the movie, but then some super evil bad-ass in a Ralph Lauren Phantom suit in the cartoon.
― barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:36 (seventeen years ago) link
uh, this kinda ain't true, I believe.
― barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:39 (seventeen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 18:43 (seventeen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 19:34 (seventeen years ago) link
― DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 22:20 (seventeen years ago) link
SO, is it possible that Warners made a bad Superman movie a few years ago on purpose?http://www.newsarama.com/film/090917-superman-movie-no-plans.html
― there's a better way to browse (Dr. Superman), Thursday, 17 September 2009 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link
The Chronological Superman http://thechronologicalsuperman.tumblr.com/ KINDA rips off http://polmanning.tumblr.com/ but has real (good) analysis
― like working at a jewelry store and not knowing about bracelets (Dr. Superman), Sunday, 20 May 2012 02:25 (eleven years ago) link
booming: http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/that_superman_thing/
― fistula-la-la (sic), Monday, 8 October 2012 05:58 (eleven years ago) link
Superman's sheepish grin and shrug in the last panel later became the subject of a 1958 Jules Feiffer essay in Holiday called "Stop Smiling, Superman," which itself was appropriated by Quentin Tarantino for an elevator speech given by priest/hitman Lawrence Hilton Jacobs in the director's little-seen 2009 Norm MacDonald-starring remake of Charley Varrick.
wait waht
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 8 October 2012 16:40 (eleven years ago) link
man do I wish that had really happened
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 8 October 2012 16:41 (eleven years ago) link
The points made in this article aren't necessarily new or original, but I think it's a nice summation of what Superman is and why he keeps coming back:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/06/07/dont-mess-with-superman/
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 06:35 (ten years ago) link
The last point is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's entirely true? Has Superman ever had a grim & gritty reimagining, besides Elseworlds type of stories (like Red Son), where the change of premise is the whole point? Even in Superman: Earth One, though it started with an emo Superman, he was pretty much the classic Superman by the end of the story.
I haven't read that many DC comics of the 90s, did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 06:46 (ten years ago) link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Justice_Society_of_America_v3_10_art.jpg
The previous, Brandon Routh, Superman film as well I suppose.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 11:25 (ten years ago) link
Where is that pic from?
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 11:52 (ten years ago) link
That's the older Earth-Two Superman, right? I don't know what comic you're talking about, but what I meant was whether the "official" Superman has ever been grittified? I know it's been done to various alternate Supermen, but what about the main guy? (And yeah, I know the Earth-Two dude is canonically the original Superman of the Golden Age, but whatever has been done to him to make him "dark" must be after the Earth-One dude became the official Superman, and he became an alternate version.)
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:01 (ten years ago) link
i don't know where that image is from either, but it looks like it's by alex ross, who i thought was pretty philisophically opposed to grim-and-gritty
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:05 (ten years ago) link
That is a hell of an impression to have, particularly since he's the original source of Kingdom Come, the Superman from which is above.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:07 (ten years ago) link
well as tuomas sez, the image is a variant on the old earth 2 superman (with a bit of george reeves thrown in for good measure.) my definition of a grim and gritty superman would be one where he's holding a big gun and acting in a morally dubious fashion - not something i get from that particular image, where he just looks a bit broody (i haven't read the comic.) And in general. ross' work deliberately represents a return to old school values of heroic, noble characters rendered in a realist style, and usually framed as an overt repudiation of the post-dark knight school of superheroics (dark night being the ur-text for all things grim and gritty)
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:14 (ten years ago) link
A fine and noble view, unburdened as it is by dull facts!
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:31 (ten years ago) link
It's been while since I read it, but isn't Kingdome Come pretty much against grim and gritty. Isn't the story of KC that older superheroes have been replaced by new, 90s-style gritty heroes, but they turn out not to so heroic, and in the end Superman (who represents the ideals of the pre-grim era) returns, and a new era more idealistic heroes begins again?
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 12:34 (ten years ago) link
^^^ superman should be combo of smug alien and corny all-american boy scout; the 'lo a god walks amongst us' stuff that the recent movies focus on (apparently; haven't seen the new one but i hear it's pretty humorless supes) should be at most color for the climax. if yr superman isn't smiling, making quips, more likable and approachable than batman then you're doing it wrong.
― balls, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:13 (ten years ago) link
wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness, although i don't think of superman as being a 'quipster', esp - that's more like a stan lee character trait.
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:30 (ten years ago) link
Quips are for last panel laughter freeze frames.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:36 (ten years ago) link
yeah quipster's the wrong phrase, more bemused, reeves had this down.
― balls, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:38 (ten years ago) link
Basically he should be Christopher Reeve.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 15:57 (ten years ago) link
Matt Bomer for Superman?
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
wld def prefer to see a movie derived from all the nutty 60s weisinger stuff - bottle city of kandor, bizarro, the works - than yet more hohum mythic seriousness
agree %1000
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
always felt John Hamm would've been a great Superman but he's a few years too old now
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:01 (ten years ago) link
Martian hammhunter
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link
Jon Hamm should be Deadshot
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link
Spider-Hamm, naturally
― Nhex, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:17 (ten years ago) link
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:00 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
he looks exactly like cavill!
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 16:24 (ten years ago) link
"did they ever try to revamp him to be 90s style gritty hero back then?"
Does giving him a mullet count?
http://www.unwinnable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/SuperPowers.jpg
― earlnash, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 21:35 (ten years ago) link
was the mullet dan jurgens' fault? i feel like it was
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 12 June 2013 22:22 (ten years ago) link
i would be down with asshole supes but never gonna happen
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 01:27 (ten years ago) link
It's already happened!
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x5/MacGizmo/Animated/drunk_superman.gif
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 10:04 (ten years ago) link
what's that from? i managed to avoid the last supes movie but that looks hella older
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:42 (ten years ago) link
superman 3, which was terrifying to me as a kid
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:45 (ten years ago) link
the robot lady gave me nightmares
― Nhex, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:48 (ten years ago) link
wow, that does not look like christopher reeve
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:49 (ten years ago) link
― Nhex, Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:48 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
she was so scary! also, richard pryor synthesizing kryptonite and using tar as the secret ingredient really grossed me out for some reason. i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:52 (ten years ago) link
Robot lady scared me too. I think a whole generation was scarred by the sight of Annie Ross being swallowed by wires.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwm11goF531qagpnjo1_400.gif
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:59 (ten years ago) link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Superman_III_poster.jpg
Poster = none more eighties
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:40 (ten years ago) link
i think because he got the idea from a pack of cigs and i was always nagging my parents not to smoke
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4058/4587230373_d04142cbe5_o.jpg
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:51 (ten years ago) link
Superman III is bad, but at least the way the Good/Evil Superman split is handled is in the spirit of the Weisinger/Silver Age stuff and not as some SERIOUS SUPERMAN IS SERIOUS bullshit
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:56 (ten years ago) link
Yeah, absolutely. Reeve is really, really great as Asshole Superman.
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, 13 June 2013 15:57 (ten years ago) link
Nick O'Teen!
― i didn't even give much of a fuck that you were mod (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 13 June 2013 16:02 (ten years ago) link
Shakey OTM
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 13 June 2013 16:42 (ten years ago) link
Did the mullet coincide with any changes in his personality? In the mullet stories I've read, he's pretty much the same guy except for hair length.
I guess the electric blue Superman was an attempt to make him more of a 90s style hero? Though I'm only familiar with that through Morrison's JLA, so I don't really know what the heck it was all about...
― Tuomas, Friday, 14 June 2013 06:57 (ten years ago) link
Anyway, it's a perfect example of how well superhero writers/artists are keeping up with the current trends, that when they wanted to make Superman more "cool" in the 90s, they gave him an 80s hair.
― Tuomas, Friday, 14 June 2013 07:00 (ten years ago) link
Anyone seen the movie and/or read Superman Unchained, then?
Unchained read like a Roger Stern/Dan Jurgens story gone widescreen -- actually, that's not a bad thing -- but was more like a solid issue #341 rather than a BIG FIRST ISSUE. It's a lot more trad than Snyder's work on Batman, but again, that's not actually a bad thing.
The costume is still dreadful though - much worse than the mullet! And Jim Lee's back doing those horrible diagonal frayed panels that are his wont.
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 14 June 2013 09:21 (ten years ago) link
They gave Superman the "mullet" because Dean Cain had long hair at the time he won the job to play Superman. By the time Lois and Clark aired he cut of the hair to look more like Superman. So a long story short DC didn't want new fans to get confused, so they jumped the gun. When the studio was planning on having Dean cut his hair to begin with.
― fit and working again, Friday, 14 June 2013 17:34 (ten years ago) link
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/14/alan-moore-addresses-the-criminality-behind-superman-and-the-comic-book-industry/
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 14 June 2013 20:04 (ten years ago) link
can anybody else get that to load/summarize it
― Bathory Tub Blues (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 14 June 2013 21:47 (ten years ago) link
bleeding cool seems to be down
― fit and working again, Friday, 14 June 2013 21:53 (ten years ago) link
― bizarro gazzara, Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:57 AM (
he was also for the first and last time sexy as fuck
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 14 June 2013 21:54 (ten years ago) link
sorry, don't know why that isn't loading
seems to be an excerpt from a larger esay by alan that links the shady nature of pulp publishing w/ the theft of rights etc from creators like siegel and shuster.
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 14 June 2013 21:56 (ten years ago) link
i wonder if it will contain an ambivalent screed about his role in the Marvelman saga
― Nhex, Friday, 14 June 2013 21:58 (ten years ago) link
Wasn't dead Superman In Space a bit g&g? He had a beard, at least.
Oh, and a few years ago (just before Johnsiverse) didn't he fuck off to Kandor for like a year or something because he'd had enough of humans? (From memory this led to Silver Age shenanigans instead though, so is probably not a god example.)
― Troughton-masked Replicant (aldo), Wednesday, 19 June 2013 19:20 (ten years ago) link
are you thinking of when he thought he was out of touch with the common man, so walked across America for a year?
(in a story that JMS originated and bailed out on after six issues, but collected half the royalties on replacement Chris Roberson's scripts out of sheer dickishness iirc)
― pink, fleshy, and gleeful (sic), Thursday, 20 June 2013 00:39 (ten years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg1yUMqJMcw
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 20 June 2013 00:42 (ten years ago) link
This was before the Death, I think? He had to execute some Kryptonian criminals, because otherwise they would've killed more people, but breaking his "thou shall not kill" code caused a moral crisis, so he flew off to space to think about stuff. At least that's what I remember about those stories, it's been 20 years since I read them... Yeah, I guess that could be seen as an attempt to grittify Supes, but IIRC the storyline didn't end up changing him that much, and when he came back he was just as ethical as he was before.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 20 June 2013 10:35 (ten years ago) link
I'm not really a huge Supes fan tbh, but I like this article:http://comicsalliance.com/superman-a-celebration-of-75-years-review-dc/?trackback=twitter_top
― Nhex, Friday, 22 November 2013 19:01 (ten years ago) link
hmmm 2/3rds of those stories are exactly the same ones printed in my Best Superman Stories collection from the late 80s (Byrne issue being the final entry in that one)
dunno if that undercuts his argument or not
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 November 2013 19:29 (ten years ago) link
nah, that actually makes sense, the late 80s was when the dark, "realistic" edgy superhero themes took off. it's more surprising now that the wheel has turned back around
― Nhex, Friday, 22 November 2013 19:32 (ten years ago) link
yeah that occurred to me too
altho I didn't think my collection was about failure/sadness - there is that, but it also has the first appearance of Mxtylplyk, Superman's bday/Fortress of Solitude introduction, what if Krypton hadn't blown up etc. it has its share of fun.
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 22 November 2013 21:19 (ten years ago) link
Martha Kent fanfic. Someone, get this woman a job at DC.http://archiveofourown.org/works/6447187
― Nhex, Monday, 4 April 2016 20:32 (eight years ago) link
heh, that's a fun read
― a lad of balls (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 6 April 2016 14:06 (eight years ago) link
introduced 80 years ago today
― the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 19 April 2018 00:37 (six years ago) link