― Flyboy (Flyboy), Thursday, 17 March 2005 16:25 (nineteen years ago) link
i too have problems with the whole you know pomo anti-humanism, but his heart's in the right the place you know.
― baseballizer, Thursday, 17 March 2005 16:27 (nineteen years ago) link
― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link
My favorite DeLillo is actually The Names, which almost no one else likes.
― The Mad Puffin (The Mad Puffin), Thursday, 17 March 2005 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link
― Carl Solomon, Thursday, 17 March 2005 18:53 (nineteen years ago) link
all his books have like 50 pages of good writing in between smug, tedious shit.
― fcussen (Burger), Friday, 18 March 2005 00:35 (nineteen years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Friday, 18 March 2005 00:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevan (Kevan), Friday, 18 March 2005 08:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― carol dean ford, Friday, 18 March 2005 14:44 (nineteen years ago) link
I continue to recommend The Names; it's diverting and cool and full of ideas.
― The Mad Puffin (The Mad Puffin), Friday, 18 March 2005 15:18 (nineteen years ago) link
Understated, affectless, drab, stilted, guarded, clunky, grey, colorless, boring.
― o. nate (onate), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 16:47 (nineteen years ago) link
i don't know, i think he's bleak, but not 'cold' or unemotional, as some would have it.
― the punch, Friday, 18 March 2005 16:51 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 18 March 2005 17:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― Carl Solomon, Friday, 18 March 2005 17:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― the bellefox, Friday, 18 March 2005 17:58 (nineteen years ago) link
TP is a great stylist, I suppose, flawed by his excess of hippy wank imagination. DD is a good stylist too: I guess I agree with the baseballizer.
White Noise I find beautifully lyrical as well as effectively satirical; Libra is a monument on quiet fire. The Body Artist maybe melts too much into mere vapour. I'm disappointed to realize that I've read no further. Conversations With Don DeLillo is good, though.
― the bluefox, Friday, 18 March 2005 18:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 18 March 2005 22:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― jed_ (jed), Friday, 18 March 2005 23:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― derrick (derrick), Sunday, 20 March 2005 07:58 (nineteen years ago) link
Sorry, I somewhat belatedly realized that my commments above probably come across as more negative about DeLillo's prose than I actually feel. I was just trying to flesh out the connotation of "flat" that I had in mind. By listing all those negative words, I think I greatly exaggerated my distaste for DeLillo's writing. I still think he's a good writer - I'm just trying to imagine how he could be better - to me at least.
― o. nate (onate), Sunday, 20 March 2005 08:24 (nineteen years ago) link
I don't think of him who writes about characters that stuff happens to, ie., in terms of using that kind of a structural layout. For me, his books are important for the sense in which they hold together like paintings, or something, in that the characters exist alongside descriptions of the environment, and the dialogue, ie., all of these things have a kind of equivalent status in his books. And all of these equal things' existence, and the structured whole, stand in some special relationship to D's sensibility.
― David Joyner (David Joyner), Sunday, 3 April 2005 22:52 (nineteen years ago) link
― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 4 April 2005 00:13 (nineteen years ago) link
i also ended up engrossed in the body artist despite the probably purposefully elicited misgivings i had at the beginning (this is so slight, etc.). so far i've decided to suppose that white noise is the odd one out.
― Josh (Josh), Sunday, 24 April 2005 08:01 (nineteen years ago) link
it occurs to me now, having recently been reading two books ('berlin alexanderplatz' and natsuo kirino's 'out') that one might describe as in some way 'social novels', or, better, as having elements of the social novel to them - despite my not really having any actual acquaintance with the books properly called 'social novels' like, i don't know, 'germinal' or 'an american tragedy' or 'cannery row' or whatever they really are - that while i am often more bored by this kind of book, 'the social novel', partly because of its narrative or psychological or etc. focus on things that i personally am bored by, partly because of its tendency to a programmatic interest in 'realistic' prose - while i'm often more bored by it, perhaps one could say that one of the interesting things about delillo's novels is that they have a broader scope for what counts as 'social' while still maintaining some of that old interest in 'the social' of 'the social novel'. this is all basically baseless speculation, though. an idea to throw out.
'broader' is a poor way of putting it.
― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 27 August 2005 05:52 (eighteen years ago) link
blogging for the onion
― schlump, Friday, 3 October 2008 14:41 (fifteen years ago) link
woah
― t_g, Friday, 3 October 2008 14:48 (fifteen years ago) link
surely not real right
― t_g, Friday, 3 October 2008 14:49 (fifteen years ago) link
why not? i guess the arguments here are that it-sounds-so-much-like-him that it can only be a parody, versus it can only be him. but it's like chunks of the campus establishment writingin white noise. it's certainly him.
― schlump, Friday, 3 October 2008 15:40 (fifteen years ago) link
well that bit 'he speaks in your voice, american' is the first line of underworld so i would have thought it's a parody
― t_g, Friday, 3 October 2008 15:42 (fifteen years ago) link
That's great. It's a pretty obscure thing to joke about, though
― Ismael Klata, Friday, 3 October 2008 21:57 (fifteen years ago) link
Libra is pretty great, though it starts slow. Americana also OK. Rest of it I can do without.
― hugo, Thursday, 9 October 2008 19:44 (fifteen years ago) link
americana's amazing! white noise is a better novel, but americana's just so lyrical, such a distinct voice, so many offhand lines. i remember reading the joshua ferris novel and being amazed at how derivative it was. this is more likely my ignorance, but i can't really trace back the topical writing style of short declarative sentences, of that mild deadpan typified by eggers, july &c, any further than americana. it's like he created the current american narrative voice.
― schlump, Thursday, 9 October 2008 20:07 (fifteen years ago) link
libra starts slow? ach, i guess, compared to how riveting it becomes
― 100 tons of hardrofl beyond zings (Just got offed), Thursday, 9 October 2008 20:08 (fifteen years ago) link
Read Running Dog, based on being interested in a 2 sentence precis somewhere (something about Hitler and pornography); actually found this to be about his dullest book, which is really a special achievement.
Apart from the The Names, which a few have recommended here (& which I haven't read), has anyone read End Zone?
― David Joyner, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 00:40 (fifteen years ago) link
yah a long time ago--it was pretty awes
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 00:45 (fifteen years ago) link
I just read a summary of 'End Zone', talking about how the main character is obsessed with what he sees as imminent nuclear armageddon, which has rather swayed me towards reading it (I've liked about 2/3 of the eLillo I've read before, but was previously put off this by it being about football).
― James Morrison, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 06:40 (fifteen years ago) link
James: let me know how you go. I'm unlikely to go with End Zone next, considering I don't yet own a copy, and so am instead faced with the familiar and let's face it unpleasant task of working out which owned-but-as-yet-unread-book to choose from... Oh, I think I said recently it'd be The Assistant, so had better not make a liar of me...
― David Joyner, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 07:33 (fifteen years ago) link
i really liked endzone. i'd like to read it again someday. same with americana. i read all those books so long ago, they would seem new to me again.
― scott seward, Tuesday, 14 October 2008 09:15 (fifteen years ago) link
A voice from the subconscious: Toyota Corola.
This is also a White Noise reference.
― jaymc, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 05:40 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah it must be a pardoy even tho someone up above said 'it's certainly him'
― t_g, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 08:06 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, I mean, their other bloggers include "Pip Dawkins, 19th Century Street Urchin" and "Gary Brunson, 5-Week-Old Fetus."
― jaymc, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 15:27 (fifteen years ago) link
it's certainly a 5 week old fetus
― t_g, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 15:46 (fifteen years ago) link
i was the one CERTAINLY HIMing all over the place. i've still only read the first entry. i think my conviction is more rooted in wondering why people make convincing hoaxes, like really authentic and not particularlt satirical april fools jokes, with author's photo etc.
i am quite keen to deflect attention back on to general don delillo affairs to distract from my potential faux pas.
― schlump, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 16:03 (fifteen years ago) link
just got the 9/11 book - only one i haven read
i rep for mao 2 and the names fwiw
― joseph sixpack (ice crӕm), Wednesday, 15 October 2008 16:08 (fifteen years ago) link
I'd been looking for the 9/11 book in secondhand shops. I saw a reviewers' pre-copy, but didn't buy it because I wanted the nice cover with the vertical subway train (I think). I finally found a copy the other day and was very pleased with myself - until Mrs K pointed out that the cover is just a picture of clouds, and not the one I wanted at all :o(
― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 21:42 (fifteen years ago) link
Ones I really, really did dig by him: Mao II, Running Dog, Libra, Ratner's Star (with reservations)
― James Morrison, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 22:26 (fifteen years ago) link
rad covers for the new book:
http://www.perival.com/delillo/pointomega_graphic.jpg
http://www.perival.com/delillo/pointomega_small.jpg
― high-five machine (schlump), Monday, 14 December 2009 13:47 (fourteen years ago) link
hrhmmm
DON DELILLO HAS BEEN "WEIRDLY PROPHETIC about twenty-first-century America" (The New York Times Book Review). In his earlier novels, he has written about conspiracy theory, the Cold War and global terrorism. Now, in Point Omega, he looks into the mind and heart of a "defense intellectual," one of the men involved in the management of the country's war machine.
Richard Elster was a scholar -- an outsider -- when he was called to a meeting with government war planners, asked to apply "ideas and principles to such matters as troop deployment and counterinsurgency."
We see Elster at the end of his service. He has retreated to the desert, "somewhere south of nowhere," in search of space and geologic time. There he is joined by a filmmaker, Jim Finley, intent on documenting his experience. Finley wants to persuade Elster to make a one-take film, Elster its single character -- "Just a man and a wall."
Weeks later, Elster's daughter Jessica visits -- an "otherworldly" woman from New York, who dramatically alters the dynamic of the story. The three of them talk, train their binoculars on the landscape and build an odd, tender intimacy, something like a family. Then a devastating event throws everything into question.
In this compact and powerful novel, it is finally a lingering human mystery that haunts the landscape of desert and mind.
― thomp, Monday, 14 December 2009 13:49 (fourteen years ago) link
dude beckett >>>>> joyce
i am not looking forward to the pinefox's return to this thread :)
― mark s, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 21:42 (seven years ago) link
xp. borges is not a boom writer. marquez and vargas llosa both winning the nobel means the boom is one movement where you can say pretty definitively that the best writers from it won the nobel
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 21:47 (seven years ago) link
I know but I think its fair to say that in people's minds Borges is the father of modern Latin American fiction and a precursor of the boom. I know it doesn't stick.
beckett >>>>> joyce
Flann O'Brien ftw
(Would've agreed, have been off Joyce till I started reading parts of the Wake via that twitter account. But again they aren't like one another anyway, just seen as part of the same 'scene')
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 21:53 (seven years ago) link
LOL now looking at that list on wiki and more exampels: Mann not Rilke, Jelinek not Bernhard, Gide not Proust, Seferis not Cavafy, Canetti not Musil, Pasternak not Tsvetaeva, Saramago not Pessoa.
Even if I like quite a few of the writers that have won its such a load of rub!
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:00 (seven years ago) link
marquez and vargas llosa both winning the nobel means the boom is one movement where you can say pretty definitively that the best writers from it won the nobel
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, October 12, 2016 2:47 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
except neruda was not a better writer than borges, but you can argue that borges didn't win it for political reasons, sure
i always thought cortazar was a better writer than marquez. llosa wrote maybe one decent book. yet the writer who encompasses all the boom's qualities is the one who did it the worse in my opinion -- marquez
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:01 (seven years ago) link
neruda and borges is the right generation but very different writers. i expect it was more the great mass popularity of neruda that probably swung the judges.
vargas llosa's first three novels are all great imo, and several of his later works are decent
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:07 (seven years ago) link
best way to look at the nobel prize is as a pretty arbitrary thing that isn't that important other than for that year's laureate and their fans
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:10 (seven years ago) link
A lot of time the best die young. But Marquez was pretty clearly the right boom winner, if only for Autumn of the Patriarch. I used to love Cortazar, but the latest short story collection I tried and make my way through was severely disappointing. I'd take Juan Rulfo every day of the week instead.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:13 (seven years ago) link
WHERE'S THE FUN IN THAT?
*starts busily reading all the winners in order*
― mark s, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:15 (seven years ago) link
if you listen to old peruvian dudes tell stories, you'll be reminded of vargas llosa, because he just formalized a type of popular storytelling from peru. his works do get more academic, because i guess he was a fan of russian formalism
i kind of got tired of it because i heard a bunch of old peruvian dudes tell stories in the same fashion
weirdly la catedral is the one i think is his only decent book
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:19 (seven years ago) link
Neruda not Vallejo!!
I really liked One Hundred Years of Solitude when I read it a few years ago. Wonder how it stands up today. Pedro Paramo is really good.
Actually I don't know if Latin American existentialism has ever won the Nobel
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:22 (seven years ago) link
juan rulfo is good stuff too
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:26 (seven years ago) link
when i was a kid and into socialism, vallejo really spoke to me, as did all his melancholic verses
neruda always sounded cheesy to me, but i've grown to like a few of his poems
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:28 (seven years ago) link
Yeah I like Neruda but Vallejo is all-time (esp the Spain take this cup away from me cycle) (Ok I suppose Vallejo would've been not that well-known in the 30s but I like to think there is some kind of guilt involved, like lets give Beckett the prize because its safe to do so now Modernism is accepted)
Nobel def go for kinda boring literary careerism if anything: Mann is like the perfect caricature of a Nobel winner. I think Borges didn't win, not bcz of politics (look at Mann's nationalism, Llosa is dodgy isn't he?) but because he wasn't that industrious and way past his best. His repute is based on a dozen short stories and a handful of essays. More than enough given what he wrote but these people are idiots.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:33 (seven years ago) link
it's worth looking through the blurbs they give winners, the phrase "lofty idealism" crops up a LOT :D
kipling and hamsun had *way* dodgier politics than borges or llosa (tho hamsun's turn to the dark side may have been after his prize)
― mark s, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:38 (seven years ago) link
It was after yeah (and it was given for Growth of the Soil which no one gives a shit about)
More dodgy pols: Eliot and LOL Churchill
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:47 (seven years ago) link
oh man llosa is super dodgy, flip flopping. he wanted to run for president in the 90s but he's definitely not a politician and if memory serves, he was considered way too intellectual and not practical enough
you're right about borges, but it seems to me neruda's popularity increased because he was riding the socialist wave that was so big in south america. maybe i'm being cynical but he seemed to play his cards right, whereas borges took a huge gamble speaking out against the atrocities peron committed, but this is the machiavellic attitude of latin american politics that so many leftists are comfortable with
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 22:57 (seven years ago) link
borges was a small c conservative who backed the dictatorship in argentina in the 70s - for a while, was later bit put off by the body count. neruda was a stalinist.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:03 (seven years ago) link
with all the promises that the peron gov't had made, who wouldn't support it? the difference is when the "body count" was released, borges had the decency to come to his senses
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:06 (seven years ago) link
borges never supported peron, but he was p happy with regular old military dictatorship.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:10 (seven years ago) link
neruda never voiced support, or criticism, of peron.
exactly, which is why i said "he played his cards right"
as they say in spanish, "se hizo el tonto"
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:12 (seven years ago) link
Neruda was Chilean.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:13 (seven years ago) link
lol they speak spanish there buddy
and jim is referring to borges's meeting with pinochet, but that's a separate argument, and borges said that he had no idea what pinochet was involved in
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:15 (seven years ago) link
neruda wasn't political opportunist, he was generally very true to his stalinism. criticizing peron wouldn't have been controversial, and in fact the communists in argentina weren't huge fans.
borges is no angel, as most latin american conservatives of his time he was quite happy for liberal democracy to be overturned if it helped keep the status quo - which in latin america was massive inequality and quasi-feudalism.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:23 (seven years ago) link
he was a bit squeamish when the bodies started to pile up, which makes him more empathetic than many, but hardly unblemished.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:24 (seven years ago) link
gotta take off from work, but ya, i don't wholly agree with you
will try to reply later
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:34 (seven years ago) link
we really took our eye off the ball in THIS thread
― mark s, Thursday, 13 October 2016 11:12 (seven years ago) link
took yr 'troll PR one last vast time' line and ran wild
― sktsh, Thursday, 13 October 2016 12:03 (seven years ago) link
ya i'd love to discuss this further with jim but this is not the thread (it involves a lot of political understanding of latin american "left" and "right" and how they're not equal to left and rigth concepts as say americans or canadians think of them)
sorry
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 13 October 2016 17:49 (seven years ago) link
we really took our eye off the ball in THIS thread― mark s, Thursday, 13 October 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― mark s, Thursday, 13 October 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
A beat writer won it. My theory holds.
What do I win?
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 13 October 2016 18:56 (seven years ago) link
dylan not cohen
― Har-@-Iago (wins), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:02 (seven years ago) link
Sorry I just read James Morrison on the other thread. He wins.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:03 (seven years ago) link
ginsberg is considered dylan's life long mentor though and has pretty openly said he is influenced by him
xp
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:05 (seven years ago) link
cohen more of a traditional beat poet, though, you're right
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:06 (seven years ago) link
ok to bring this back to don delillo: really liked underworld but do you not feel he maybe goes too far with tying everything together with the idea of underworld. like there's some mafia dudes - UNDERWORLD - there's a guy doing graffiti in subway tunnels - UNDERWORLD - there's some nuclear waste being buried in Kazakhstan - UNDERWORLD, etc.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:07 (seven years ago) link
xp I was just riffing on xyzzz's "beckett not joyce" &c
― Har-@-Iago (wins), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:10 (seven years ago) link
philip roth on his agent's sofa, sadly watching the liver going cold for the last time
― mark s, Thursday, October 13, 2016 12:23 PM (eleven months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
(unsure why i said "for the last time" -- CLEARLY NOT FOR THE LAST TIME)
― mark s, Thursday, 5 October 2017 11:45 (six years ago) link
Trying to picture Martin Amis right now.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 5 October 2017 11:55 (six years ago) link
picture an entire body made of tin ear
― mark s, Thursday, 5 October 2017 12:06 (six years ago) link
- UNDERWORLD
― j., Thursday, 5 October 2017 15:53 (six years ago) link
Underworld was awful. The zapruder bit was awful. The bit about Edgar Hoover was awful. Some of the writing was amazingly skillful but AMERICA in all caps is such a banal subject.
― judith, Friday, 16 February 2018 23:53 (six years ago) link
jaoo-dae!
― Heavy Messages (jed_), Saturday, 17 February 2018 00:49 (six years ago) link
I think it was at least half a great book.Probably never got more electrifying than the Pafko at the Wall opening unfortunately. Amazing piece of writing, that.
― circa1916, Saturday, 17 February 2018 01:24 (six years ago) link
Any recommendations from the last decade or so of DeLillo novels?
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 December 2020 21:58 (three years ago) link
I thought Zero K was just ok, but I read it pretty soon after Underworld so I might have just been a little overDeLilloed at that point. He has a new one out now, doesnt he?
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 13:19 (three years ago) link
it was disappointing imo
last decade? nah
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 13:57 (three years ago) link
im gonna read the new one anyway. i liked point omega (maybe his most straightforwardly pretentious novel) but zero k not so much, felt very conventional and really just a rehash of earlier stuff that he's rehashed enough at this point (without the elliptical refinement of his more severely minimal stuff post underworld). looking down through his list of novels im less convinced he had a 'classic' period and the ones that really stand out for me ('the names,' 'libra' and 'falling man') are not come before and after much less interesting ones. (i do tend to find his most ambitious stuff fairly tedious. Ratners star is not as clever as it thinks it is and Underworld is infuriating.)
Also there's a review in the most recent LRB of the new one that i haven't read in case spoilers and also bc its by andrew o hagan but it might helpful?
― plax (ico), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 14:27 (three years ago) link
I've only read Great Jones Street. I had two problems with it:
- the main character was a cipher, and since he's also the narrator it left the book bloodless. He has elements of Dylan/Jagger/Lennon as convenient from moment to moment, but I never felt DeLillo actually got into the character.- like J. G. Ballard, the story was more a scenario being explained than a plot that we see working out. That's perhaps an obvious pitfall when the whole book takes place (as I recall) in one apartment.
I did walk past the actual Great Jones Street in New York, it's about as wide as it is long and only has a handful of buildings on it.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:27 (three years ago) link